Sandy Hook Elementary

[Ramplate]

Originally Posted by sshuttari

Read this argument on Reddit.

Your premise is flawed for any number of reasons. Your entire argument is based around the idea that there's no reason to oppose the idea of defending every school in America with armed guards other than blind opposition to guns, which either shows a huge lack of understanding or (more likely) is showing off what I'm assuming is your strong pro-gun bias.

Assuming you aren't extremely young, you should remember the most notorious school shooting in the US at Columbine High School. There was an armed guard on that campus who actually exchanged shots with the shooters early in the attack, which didn't prevent the attacks and doesn't seem to have saved lives. Or how about the shooting at Virginia Tech, where armed police were present during the second part of the attack and didn't prevent it. Or, perhaps most damning of all, how about the Fort Hood shooting which was a goddam Army base and still suffered a large number of casualties.

Basically, the reason that people are reacting so strongly to the NRA's press conference isn't because they secretly hate guns. It's because the idea is on the very face of it idiotic. And that's before we even get into all the second order issues that make the suggestion even worse.

At a very conservative ballpark this idea would cost somewhere north of $18 billion.
Besides already having been proven to be catastrophically ineffective at stopping attacks, the presence of guns seems correlated with an increase in violence (4.5 times likelier to be shot while carrying a gun and increased likelihood of gun related death with guns in the home). Even in the absolutely best case where this wasn't obviosuly a stupid idea you've traded a theoretical decrease in a small probability chance of a very bad thing (a large scale school shooting) for a huge number of small percentage increases in a less bad thing (one of the hundreds of thousands of guns now in schools is used to kill one or a few people there).
The logic behind this idea is practically a perfect example of a slippery slope to a police state. Assume that this is an appropriate response to a school shooting, why isn't the inevitable answer to have armed guards everywhere at all times? If Sandy Hook is a tragedy and the only response is an armed guard in every school, why isn't the Aurora theater shooting also a tragedy where the only response is armed guards in every theater in the US? There have been reports of gang related violence in ERs in the US, should station armed guards be put in every hospital just in case? If you run this logic out, there's basically nowhere in the US that shouldn't have armed guards.

The entire idea was so glaringly idiotic that it to a certain extent stole the spotlight from the rest of that bizarre press conference. It's all the movie's fault! No, I meant video games! Or was it the mainstream media?! No wait, it's that kids can't bring their own guns to school! Will you buy that there are bad people and we should shoot them? Guns are the only solution to any problem! For all the words you devoted to how gun control advocates are blindly letting principles drive them to take unreasonable positions, you seem to have done an odd job of missing one of the definitive examples of blindly saying any and every asinine thing imaginable to try and change the conversation away from someone's personal hobby horse.

Which by the way is one of the clearest signals the NRA thinks they're on the losing side of the argument. Historically they hunker down when a tragedy like this happens and then kill or gut any legislation through lobbying in the background. The fact they so explicitly made the conversation about them, with such a hodge-podge of provocative and clearly unworkable ideas, is the best sign you're likely to get that the NRA doesn't think that'll work this time.

Adding guards to schools can help in some cases, but not all. They will be the first taken out if 'Crazy' has a good plan.
At Columbine they had homemade bombs that made the existing security guards retreat.
When the guards go down - there's another free weapon to be had by someone else maybe not gun savvy enough, or for 'Crazy' to use. So in those cases, adding guns is not the answer. Also 'Crazy' and person with gun not in uniform are both potential targets for responding police - some victim trying to help could get killed - no one's wearing labels 'Good Samaritan' or 'Crazy'.

Also, the NRA doesn't acknowledge that some cops and/or security guards are also human - not perfect white knights.

Drew Peterson - cop convicted of killing his second wife, and his third has not been seen or heard from in years either.

Manuel Pardo - former Boy Scout and Navy veteran. Graduated at the top of his class at the police academy in Florida. He was kicked out and rehired by different police departments for falsifying tickets, brutality, he also committed perjury in court over a drug smuggling case.
In 1996 ye went on a 96 day robbery spree killing 6 men and 3 women.
He was executed this month for his crimes.

Antoinette Frank - She was a police officer in New Orleans - she took up with a two bit thug, letting him ride with her on patrol and even drive the police car. She and another police officer had an outside job to supplement their incomes, guarding a Vietnamese restaurant. Frank asked for more hours there and did not get them. She knew the cashing out routine at the end of the night, so she and the thug went into the restaurant and shot the other officer - then made two of the workers go back to the service room.
Feeling that something was wrong, one of the workers had hidden the cash in the microwave, and then two of them hid in the walk in freezer. The two workers they had forced back there were pistol whipped and threatened, but did not know where the other worker had hidden the money - all three victims were shot multiple times. The ones hiding in the walk in surived and called police. Frank is now on death row.

Not a perfect world - and there is no one great solution - it's going to take many different things to happen to make a dent in the carnage.


And then, there's this:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

He was caught because he also forgot to change his pants - they recognized them to be his security guard uniform's pants. There are some security guards that are less than qualified for the job

[Deexan]

Originally Posted by sshuttari

A lot of people turn to religion when they experience a loss or a major tragedy..

It's just what happens.

There are only a few people that don't.

How could you possibly know this?

[sshuttari]

Because I grew up outside of America and the comforts we ask and get here is something the rest of the world would die for.

Yet we have people willing to kill murder and destroy lives. We look at terrorists and go they hate our freedom? Really? Then what the heck is wrong with the guy that has had everything willing to murder children?

How does someone find peace in there lives. Some get it from a spiritual realm? And we bash that because we say its false but for a majority people it brings peace and love into there lives.

I don't have the answer but even the false realm of spiritual growth brings meaning to so many lives

[Ramplate]

There are also people who turn away from God in the face of tragedy.
I just watched a Celebrity Ghost Stories where Tracy Scoggins claims to have experienced a loss of a college boy she was interested in - he had died in a car accident on a trip she missed to go to church with her family.
She said she started dabbling in darker things, and met someone who befriended her - and eventually invited her home with him. There was an unfinished pentagram on the floor and he told her to step into it and he could grant her anything she truly desired.
She said she wanted one more chance to talk to the guy who died, and stepped in the circle while this guy finished drawing it, and did whatever else he did - and she said she briefly saw the spirit of the one she wanted to see - and was so shocked she ran home.

Next time she was in the class room where she had met the stranger, she asked the instructor where he was - the instructor had no idea who she was talking about, so she said she went to the house - and there was a 'for rent' sign on it - she made an appointment to see the house, and asked the landlady what happened to the guy and the landlady claimed no one had rented if for several months.

Weird story if you believe that sort of thing, but she believes it happened - and has stayed away from dark activities since.

....and yes, yes I do have strange interests in killer stories and paranormal stories Part of it is an interest in how people think and react to different things - I like to try to figure out what makes people tick.


=========================================
On another note, I just watched Face The Nation because they had the leader of the NRA on to discuss his advice that armed guards are the answer to prevent violence in schools and other places, not the gun free zones.

He stated that in recent years there have been more guns in the public's hands, yet the rate of gun related deaths have decreased.
It's more a result of medical breakthroughs - less people are dying but still getting wounded at an alarming rate.

I'm not sure, but when the host told him to compare the gun death rate in other countries and they're all lower than ours - I believe he replied no it's not and apparently noted the gun deaths are higher in England?

I'll have to wait and see the interview again when it is posted on line but that is complete BS

[sshuttari]

There are cases of people leaving faith just like anything else. I'm just saying majority of people have faith and not the cultish scary kind.

These are trying to do more good then most people. And not because they have a lot of money or are a celebrity with lots of money.

I have met many many people who are religious Christian Jewish Hindu or Muslim. I have never met anyone that has truly crazy that was harming others or anyone else.

I have read about these people online and in the news.

You can't possibly tell me religion does more harm then good.

Your lack of faith or whatever people do to not believe is good for you. But trust me the world would be a scarier place if it wasn't for people who believed in faith

[Ramplate]

True, more people are members of an organized religion than not, but the 'nots' are slightly increasing in the USA according to CBS News Sunday Morning

[Ramplate]

This article itself has links so I am posting its location

Fact-Checking the NRA Press Conference

http://news.yahoo.com/fact-checking-...185542748.html

[FranklinTard]

So how do you bring God back into schools first of all, second how will that not cause people to become more insular? Now schools will be segregated by religion? Those are called private schools.

[FailedEagle]

Can someone start a new gun organization? I've even got a name already. American's for Responsible Gun Ownership. ARGO.

Thanks,

Concerned Citizen.

[Ramplate]

Originally Posted by FranklinTard

So how do you bring God back into schools first of all, second how will that not cause people to become more insular? Now schools will be segregated by religion? Those are called private schools.

When I was little we were still reciting the Pledge of Allegiance every morning.
We stopped doing it after the first few grades - I don't recall doing it after about 3rd or 4th grade. And now I guess some states deem it as optional while others still say it.
We didn't even have a Jewish family in the neighborhood back then as I recall. Now there are too many people with diverse religions to incorporate much of that in public schools without offending anyone. Hell, people get upset if you even have an after school Spanish group.

Interesting to note that the original pledge was
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

No mention of God whatsoever.

The only other religious thing we did in school - other than sing some hymns in chorus along with other types of music - was a baccalaureate ceremony

[Ramplate]

Wow nothing but a load of crap coming from this guy's mouth - obstinate, closed minded, and unresponsive to direct questions that poke holes in his theory

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/...83353#50283353

[Tolkien]

Wow, I can't believe I actually quoted that guy's "bad guy, good guy" stance in the past. ugh.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Ramplate

When I was little we were still reciting the Pledge of Allegiance every morning.
We stopped doing it after the first few grades - I don't recall doing it after about 3rd or 4th grade. And now I guess some states deem it as optional while others still say it.
We didn't even have a Jewish family in the neighborhood back then as I recall. Now there are too many people with diverse religions to incorporate much of that in public schools without offending anyone. Hell, people get upset if you even have an after school Spanish group.

Interesting to note that the original pledge was
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

No mention of God whatsoever.

The only other religious thing we did in school - other than sing some hymns in chorus along with other types of music - was a baccalaureate ceremony

Wasn't god inserted into The Pledge of Allegiance in response to other radical ideologies?

By the way, how is pledging one's allegiance to one's country anything other than brainwashing? You start them at an early enough age and it'll become a mindless habit. We did it in elementary school because it was forced onto us.

[Ramplate]

Originally Posted by Justin

Wasn't god inserted into The Pledge of Allegiance in response to other radical ideologies?

By the way, how is pledging one's allegiance to one's country anything other than brainwashing? You start them at an early enough age and it'll become a mindless habit. We did it in elementary school because it was forced onto us.

It was added by a lawyer from Illinois and who was the chaplain of the Sons of the American Revolution, he got an award for adding it from the DAR.
He said it came from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address (most likely it was added by the press, but Lincoln could have add-libed it at the time).
The Knights of Columbus started doing it and it was eventually suggested to Harry Truman and adopted by congress.

[Tolkien]

The two most idiotic stories I've read all day/week/month;


First off; Right Wing Nutjobs Hard @ Work

Pro-gun rights US petition to deport Piers Morgan

LONDON (AP) — Tens of thousands of people have signed a petition calling for British CNN host Piers Morgan to be deported from the U.S. over his gun control views.

Morgan has taken an aggressive stand for tighter U.S. gun laws in the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut, school shooting. Last week, he called a gun advocate appearing on his "Piers Morgan Tonight" show an "unbelievably stupid man."

Now, gun rights activists are fighting back. A petition created Dec. 21 on the White House e-petition website by a user in Texas accuses Morgan of engaging in a "hostile attack against the U.S. Constitution" by targeting the Second Amendment. It demands he be deported immediately for "exploiting his position as a national network television host to stage attacks against the rights of American citizens."

The petition has already hit the 25,000 signature threshold to get a White House response. By Monday, it had 31,813 signatures.

Morgan seemed unfazed — and even amused — by the movement.

In a series of Twitter messages, he alternately urged his followers to sign the petition and in response to one article about the petition said "bring it on" as he appeared to track the petition's progress.

"If I do get deported from America for wanting fewer gun murders, are there any other countries that will have me?" he wrote.

http://news.yahoo.com/pro-gun-rights...130319681.html

Second; Left Wing Nutjobs Hard @ Work

Newspaper Publishes Gun Owners' Names and Addresses

NEW YORK (NYC) — A newspaper in New York has received a wave of criticism from its readers after publishing the names and addresses of all of the individuals with handgun or pistol permits in its coverage area.

Hundreds of residents in New York's Westchester and Rockland counties were surprised to find their names and addresses listed on a map posted by The Journal News on Sunday. Users can click any dot on the map to see which of their neighbors has a permit for a gun.

The map sparked more than 500 comments from readers within a day of its appearance on the website, many of them voicing outrage at the paper's decision to make the information public.

"This is CRAZY!! why in the world would you post every licensed gun owner information?? What do you hope to accomplish by doing this. This is the type of thing you do for sex offenders not law abiding gun owners. What next? should i hang a flag outside my house that says I own a gun? I am canceling my subscription with your paper today!!!" said commenter Curtis Maenza.

"How about a map of the editorial staff and publishers of Gannett and Journal News with names and addresses of their families…," wrote commenter George Thompson.

All of the names and addresses were compiled through public records. The paper also requested the information from Putnam County, which is still compiling the records for publication, according to The Journal News' website.

In a statement to ABC News, The Journal News said its readers "are understandably interested to know about guns in their neighborhoods," because of the conversation about gun control on its website after the shooting in Newtown, Conn., last week.

"We obtained the names and addresses of Westchester and Rockland residents who are licensed to own handguns through routine Freedom of Information law requests. We also requested information on the number and types of guns owned by permit holders, but officials in the county clerks offices in Westchester, Rockland and Putnam counties maintained that those specifics were not public record," the statement read.

"New York's top public-records expert, Robert Freeman, disagrees," it added.

The paper declined to answer further questions about the map.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blog...opstories.html

Map of Gun Owners in question; http://www.lohud.com/interactive/art...-neighborhood-

[Ramplate]

Yeah, There are some seriously stupid petitions out there - like making a Death Star for defense (One zap and the whole planet goes - idiots lol - not to mention you'd have to strip mine several whole planets just to get enough resources)
Genetically altered cat-girls to use as slaves, and a couple more asking for white race protection against interracial breeding so white people don't die out.

and the other thing - yeah they're not the one's committing crimes - until they use those registered guns for illegal purposes. One reason why we really haven't been invaded by too many countries is that no one knows exactly where the guns are, in many places in Europe all you have to do is go to the town hall and look up the records - they still don't know where the unregistered ones are here though and what type and how many.

[Ramplate]

Some insane ragemonster in NY near Rochester, set his car and house on fire and shot two responding volunteer firemen dead - and apparently killed himself.

His sister has not been found, and is possibly dead in the fire.
This 62 year old monster served 17 years in prison and 8 years on probation for killing his grandmother with a hammer in 1980.
His mother died in October of this year and the family asked donations be made to firemen's association at the time.

They had sold the house next door where he killed his grandmother and even told the couple who bought it “I’m sure you’ve heard about the guy who killed his grandmother in this house. . . . I’m that guy,”
But the neighbor somehow remembered him as an old hippy guy and never expected something like this.
Apparently his sister was trying to get him to move out of the house after their mother died - that must have set him off again.

This guy should not have had guns DUH!

[Ramplate]

The Violent Video Games the NRA Didn't Blame

In a news conference today (Dec. 21), National Rifle Association Executive Vice President and Chief Executive Officer Wayne LaPierre blamed video-game studio and publishers for helping to create "genuine monsters" like Adam Lanza, the 20-year-old who killed 20 first-graders with an assault rifle in Newtown, Conn., last week.

"There exists in this country, sadly, a callous, corrupt and corrupting shadow industry that sells and stows violence against its own people," LaPierre said.

LaPierre gave five examples of "vicious, violent video games": "Bulletstorm," "Grand Theft Auto," "Mortal Kombat" and "Splatterhouse," plus the obscure Flash-based online game "Kindergarten Killer."

But there's one kind of violent video game LaPierre didn't mention at all. Those would be military-themed shooters, such as the best-selling "Call of Duty" and "Medal of Honor" series, as well as the Pentagon-produced "America's Army."

Unlike the games LaPierre did name, the military shooters exalt American soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines, and the targets being shot at are Nazis, Russians, terrorists and zombies.

Retired service members serve as paid consultants to the game makers, who strive to make the weaponry depicted as true-to-life as possible. Active-duty members of Navy SEAL Team Six were punished last month for consulting on "Medal of Honor: Warfighter."

And, as mentioned, the U.S. Army produces and distributes "America's Army" itself as a recruiting and training tool.

Yet such games are not without controversy. "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2," released in 2009, contains an optional level called "No Russian" which realistically depicts a massacre of unarmed civilians in a Russian airport.

In the "No Russian" level, the playable character is an undercover CIA agent who has infiltrated a terrorist group and must take part in the massacre. The player can shoot and kill non-playable civilian characters, although no points are awarded for doing so and no points are deducted for not firing a weapon.

Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian spree killer who shot 69 people, mostly teenagers, in July 2011, later testified at his own trial that he used "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2" to train himself to use holographic weapon sights.

So why didn't LaPierre mention the single game that has been conclusively linked to an incident of mass killing, not to mention an entire category that trains players in the proper handling and use of military-grade weapons?

The NRA did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

[Knerys]

Aaaaaand the lawyers have got their hooks into Sandy Hook. Way to bankrupted to school district. :/

http://news.yahoo.com/claim-seeks-10...003646074.html

[Ramplate]

Woman charged in New York firefighter slayings

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) — William Spengler raised no alarms in prison for 17 years and for more than a decade afterward. Well-spoken, well-behaved and intelligent, his demeanor was praised by four straight parole boards that nevertheless denied him parole, worried that bludgeoning his 92-year-old grandmother with a hammer showed a violent streak that could explode again.

After his sentence was up in 1996, he stayed out of trouble until 2010, police said Friday. That's when Spengler went to a sporting goods store with a neighbor's daughter, picked out a Bushmaster semiautomatic rifle and a shotgun and had her buy the guns that the convicted felon couldn't legally possess. On Monday, he used the weapons to ambush firefighters lured to a blaze he set at his house in upstate Webster, killing two people and wounding three others before killing himself.

On Friday, state and federal authorities charged the woman who bought the guns, 24-year-old Dawn Nguyen, with lying on a form that said she would be the owner of the guns she bought for Spengler.

The charges involve the semiautomatic rifle and the 12-gauge shotgun that Spengler had with him Monday when volunteer firefighters Michael Chiapperini and Tomasz Kaczowka were gunned down. Three other people, including two other firefighters, were wounded before the 62-year-old Spengler killed himself. He also had a .38-caliber revolver, but Nguyen is not connected to that gun, police said.

Investigators were still working Friday to confirm their belief that a body found in Spengler's burned home was that of the sister he lived with, Cheryl Spengler, 67.

U.S. Attorney William Hochul said Nguyen bought the two guns on June 6, 2010, on behalf of Spengler. Police used the serial numbers on the guns to trace them to Nguyen.

"She told the seller of these guns, Gander Mountain in Henrietta, N.Y., that she was to be the true owner and buyer of the guns instead of William Spengler," Hochul said. "It is absolutely against federal law to provide any materially false information related to the acquisition of firearms."

During an interview late on Christmas Eve, she told police she had bought the guns for personal protection and that they were stolen from her vehicle, though she never reported the guns stolen. The day after the shootings, Nguyen texted an off-duty Monroe County Sheriff's deputy with references to the killings. She later called the deputy and admitted she bought the guns for Spengler, police said Friday.

That information was consistent with a suicide note found near Spengler's body after he killed himself. The rambling, typed letter spelled out Spengler's intention to destroy his neighborhood and "do what I like doing best, killing people."

Nguyen is scheduled to return to court on Jan. 8. She declined comment Friday, and a working phone number for her lawyer could not be found.

The .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle, which had a combat-style flash suppressor, is similar to the one used by the gunman who massacred 20 children and six women in a Newtown, Conn., elementary school earlier this month.

As police announced the charges against Nguyen, a clearer portrait of Spengler began to emerge, in the words of wary parole commissioners who kept him locked up until the law said they had to let him go.

At his final parole hearing in 1995, the then-45-year-old Spengler repeated his desire to get out of prison while he still had time to rebuild his life. He also took issue with a previous decision not to release him because the board believed he remained a danger to society.

"You know, the only area of confusion, the last Board, they said that I might be a danger to the community at that time," he said. "I can't figure out where in my record it shows that."

"Well, 13 shots to the head. The grandmother. You killed a 92-year-old woman. We are worried about that," a board member replied. "There might be another occasion where you lose your temper and you might repeat that behavior. That is what frightens us. That frightens us."

During four hearings between 1989 and 1995, Spengler quarreled with parole board members over details of his grandmother's killing, insisting each time he'd only hit her three times on the head with a hammer while evidence pointed to 13 blows, and initially saying he couldn't explain why the attack happened.

He told the commissioners he took care of his father's mother in her home next to his because others in the family had difficulty dealing with her, in part because she could be violent. He denied insinuations he was taking financial advantage of Rose Spengler.

The transcripts reveal a well-spoken man, proud to be staying out of trouble in prison and earning positions of trust and responsibility, even time out of prison with a work crew that did renovation work in places including a century-old chapel. The board members mention Spengler testing high for intelligence and noted he came to prison with no other crimes on his record, had only dabbled in drug use and had a spotty work history, mostly as a house painter.

On the day of the killing, he said, he planned to nail shut a basement door to prevent his grandmother from going down and endangering herself. But he said she attacked him, inadvertently kneed him in the groin, and he hit her with the hammer.

"So why do you think you killed her?" Spengler was asked in 1989.

"I still haven't figured that out. It was matter of just wanting to get out. She was between me and the door," he replied.

"She was just a little, bitty old lady," a board member commented.

"I realize that. That's why I still can't explain it," Spengler said.

[Ramplate]

Woah even more copycats out there.
Or they're being more widely reported because it's a hot topic atm

[Tolkien]

I think it's being widely reported because the topic is so fresh. The media is just focusing on these stories to help keep the main story (Sandy Hook Shooting) in the news as long as they can because it's starting to die down now. And for good reason too, I want it to die down. Those people need to recover and they can't do so while they're constantly being talked about in the news. Let them mourn in peace already.

[Ramplate]

yup

(And now we 2 got subway pushing crimes)

[KUacuraChick]

One of the many, many things I don't understand about all these shootings is how often the person with the gun turns it on themselves after the crimes have been committed. Suicide is a subject that is very close to my heart, but if you've made up your mind to die why are you going to take so many innocents with you?

[Knerys]

Originally Posted by Ramplate

yup

(And now we 2 got subway pushing crimes)

The stop is only three way from mine. :/

I try stand away from crowds on the platform as a rule. Rush hour on the elevated platforms can get sticky.