A Song of Ice & Fire Series (Game of Thrones spoilers)

[Dhamon22]

Originally Posted by JBond

Final Report of "A Dance with Dragons"

Barristan Selmy: As you said, IanTheCool, Selmy's POV chapters are great, and in the end, a real highlight of the whole book. The first chapter was the best. It was really a chapter all about Selmy, not so much what he was doing. We learned a bit more about his devotion being towards Dany because of his feelings of failure to past Targaryan kings. He’s upset about getting old and starting to think about the best way to exit as he trains new young knights. It reminded me of when the series was new and I was learning about all these great characters for the first time. I also loved the intrigue with him and the mystery of the poisoned locusts and I liked that Selmy got to be a bad-ass and kill someone in a fight, but it was pretty damn similar to Mormont’s battle with a Dothraki from A Game of Thrones. (Was it in the book too, or just the TV show?)

Quentyn Martell: I loved the death where the dragon bites through a man’s neck and breathes fire out through the guy’s mouth. So long, Quentyn.

Jon: The crow now said “Jon Snow,” I was right, somethign's going on; maybe we'll find out years from now. The march of the wildings was kind of neat. I figured Jon’s approval rating must be pretty low with all of the wildling loving, but I didn’t expect them to go Brutus on him. Not that I'm worried he'll die. He's one of only two characters in the series that I consider to be "safe" from being killed off.

Victarion: My (Drowned) God, I don’t really care.

Jon Connington: For whatever reason, I like this character; I'll be very interested to see where his story, along with Aegon, goes. (As it now does seem to be the main plotline going further) He’s like Barristan Selmy, but he chose a different path.

Arya: I love that Arya’s first kill was an insurance salesman.

Bran: I was hoping for one last Bran chapter, but nope. Only two. It'll be interesting to see how they handle this once the show catches up. They'll have to have Bran with more training scenes, or something...maybe they could even expand Rickon's character (the actor will be much older by then) and have him work out his powers, as well.

Cersei: Cersei’s walk of shame was pretty interesting. I thought for sure she was going to be betrayed and killed, though. Bummer.

Daenerys: I figured there'd be one last chapter for her; it was pretty good, I guess. I wonder what all the bleeding was about.

Epilogue: Nothing truely epic, but the ending was stil pretty interesting. I liked that it was such a bold move for Varys, and yet still believable.


Final thoughts:

I'm pretty dissapointed with the last couple books. It seems GRRM has lost his way and no one has enough pull to remind him he just wrote 2000 pages for "one book" and didn't get a whole lot done. Though that's a bit unfair, because epics such as these aren't really about accomplishments. They should be about intrigue and characters and fun, and those things have been missing for some time. Adding new storylines such as the expansion of the ironmen and Dornish wouldn't have been a problem if they were interesting. But because they weren't, it feels like GRRM is not writing so much as he's typing. My renewed interest in Barristen Selmy was a a bit of a wake up call, because it reminded me how much better a read can be when you care. Was the mystery of the poisoned locusts that interesting? Probably not. But after he got me interested in his plight, I was onboard and having a great time. Moving forward in the series, I hope he thinks first about the characters, because they are what are driving these books.

Here's my approximate ratings:

A Game of Thrones: ***.5/****
A Clash of Kings: ***/****
A Storm of Swords: ****/****
A Feast for Crows: *.5/****
A Dance with Dragons: **/****

Interesting. I'm not as pessimistic as you on Martin. I've remained interested in pretty much everything in this world, including the Dornish and Iron Isles storylines. He was going to do a '5 years later' after Storm of Swords so obviously not much was supposed to happen in the aftermath of the Red Wedding, Joffrey's death, etc. But I think he did a good job of building the world and these characters through the lull. And by the end of Dance I think we're pretty well set up for an epic last two books. Once all is said and done with the series I think Feast and Dance will be viewed in a much more positive light put in context.

Have to agree with Barriston. His stock rose dramatically after this book.

Dany - I'm thinking the blood is either her having her first period in a long time, calling an end to Mirri Maz Dur's prophecy or maybe a miscarriage. Whatever it is I think its significant. Maybe the series ends with Dany giving birth to reincarnated Jon's baby but they both die in the battle against the others. Tyrion and Dany's other confidants raise the baby to rule as the new king.

[JBond]

Originally Posted by Dhamon22

Maybe the series ends with Dany giving birth to reincarnated Jon's baby but they both die in the battle against the others.

What now?

[JBond]

I've placed my comments in bold face.

Originally Posted by PsYkOoOoO

Brief thoughts after finishing book 5:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

1) Where is GRRM going with Arya's story? I used to enjoy Arya chapters, but I have no idea what the purpose of these tests are for.

I've always felt she's goign to become an assassain and go back to Westeros at some point.

2) Why the hell is Daenerys STILL not in Westeros after five books!? I thought when she flew away on Drogon at the fighting pit, she was going to destroy the entire city and fly straight to Westeros, or something. OK, that was wishful thinking, but I certainly did not expect them to land in the middle of nowhere just to come across Khal Jhogo (spelling?)! Seems like she is going to be stuck in the East for another book.

3) Tyrion chapters in this book were much less exciting. I'm not sure if it was deliberate, considering how Tyrion is no position to wag his tongue and abuse his power as openly as before. I mean, Tyrion has been reduced to this exiled member of a royal family, on the run from his crimes as a kinslayer. Yet, the Tyrion chapters lost quite a bit of what made Tyrion chapters fun and exciting. I think his journey is still an interesting one, and he does seem to regain part of that Tyrion-ness towards the end when he negotiated his escape with Ben Plumm. THAT IS NOT TO MENTION the fact that Tyrion NEVER actually got to meet Daenerys.

I agree, I would have liked a meeting between Dany and Tyrion.

4) Jon probably had it coming, and I'm surprised that it took the rest of the Night's Watch to realize that they should have done something about it. I'm not agreeing with what they did to Jon, but then Jon kinda brought this upon himself. I think Jon's intentions were correct. After all, the real enemies are the Others, not the Wildings. Yet, I think his execution of the matter was bad, and he really should have consulted the others in the Night's Watch before doing all the stupid **** that he did. He literally INVITED the wildings through the Wall! I saw his stabbing from miles away. Oh, and I don't believe that Jon is dead for a minute. As much as GRRM likes to kill off main characters, I think Jon is one of those characters who is immune to that rule.

Funny, you said the same thign about how Jon is one of the few "safe" ones.

5) I've never liked Bran Stark chapters ever since the beginning. He started whining about him being a crippled from the beginning, and he has been chasing the three-eyed crow for two full books now. Now that he has found the three-eyed crow (or this... weird tree dude in a cave), he can not see the past, the present and the future through the weirwoods? It's interesting, but I'm not sure where GRRM is going with this. Not sure of how to feel about it.

6) I've always liked Davos chapters, and as little as they came by this time, I thought every chapter packed the punch. I was especially elated to read about his exchange with Manderly (I forgot his first name). Definitely a highlight of the books.

7) My favorite chapters in the book has got to be Theon Greyjoy's, and I don't even like Theon Greyjoy that much. What he did to Winterfell was a ****ty thing, but I don't think anybody deserves the RAMSEY BOLTON treatment. I'd still want to punch Theon in the face and kick him in the nuts, but that doesn't mean I don't want to root for him in the coming books.

Hehe "Ramsey Bolton treatment." He'll be a good "Everybody hates this guy" replacement for Joffrey.

8) Not enough Jamie Lannister.

9) I was eager to find out what happened to Cersei since the last book, and I'm glad we got a glimpse of that. Cersei's naked walk through the city was priceless, and it doesn't seem like Cersei's pride has really been dampened one bit. It's just been hidden better this time around. And, what is this Ser Robert... zombie guy? He is OBVIOUSLY the zombie version of The Mountain that Qyburn cooked up. I'm surprised nobody in the story caught that. Speaking of which, I'd prefer people to stop coming back to life.

I also assumed it was the Mountain and also agree people come back to life too much...speaking of which, where's Catelyn these days?

10) I don't really care for Victarion, Euron, or any of the Ironmen's stories. I like Asha, I guess, but not her uncles. Euron, the more interesting member of the Greyjoy family, seems to have vanished in this book.

11) AEGON IS ALIVE. I did not see that coming.

12) VARYS' allegiance is obviously for the Targaryen family at this point, still working for them and helping Jon Connington to restore Aegon to the throne. Like he said at the end of the book, Kevan is not a bad man, but he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Speaking of the last scene, what's up with those ghostly kids?!

They're his birds

Originally Posted by FranklinTard

finally complete. i would like to discuss some theories...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

so first off, about jon snow, obviously he is not dead. tormund is going to go ape **** on all the members of the night's watch that had a part in his death, although i completely agree with the decision to kill jon. melisandre will breath life back into him, i can't believe that jon snow will become 100% ghost (direwolf) at this point in the story, it would be kinda... out there. so jon comes back to life and then the wildlings have killed all the night's watch in castle black, this is why GRRM sent all of jons friends in the watch out to other towers, so they could be spared and would still deal with jon for the remainder of the story as allies. but enough about jon...

I agree, way too early to send a character into their warg body...but you have to hope it'll happen for someone in the last book.


as far as arya going on with the faceless men, all i have to do is point to jaqen. he left somehow, why not arya? why wouldn't she be dispatched to kill someone involved with not paying king's landings debts? some have theorized she will get the name of sansa or something, and she will then freak out and murder the whole faceless order, but i think that is absurd. arya will somehow make her way across to westeros, we need to find out more about jaqen before we can make many assumptions about the faceless and arya, but i am very intrigued, although i agree i have no idea really where GRRM is going.

See, now that's what I was thinking, but there's no way she's going to go Rambo on the faceless order. But I could totally see her having to kill...Jon Snow.


wait time for another thing about jon... from the letter of ramsay bolton, jon took the bait 100%. i would have thought mance rayder would not have sang as much as he did when he was flayed, but torture is torture. bolton is bluffing, stannis is not dead, obviously, because if he was, ramsay would have "his reek" since theon is with asha with stannis. manderly will help out stannis before karstark betrays him, and stannis may take winterfell, or just fall back alive and with many more allies in the form of house manderley.

as far as davos and brienne, i am so glad they are both alive. davos is on a mission to bring rickon back into the fold, so stannis can not die. he will use rickon as a mascot for the northmen to rally around, to crush any southron lords remaning in the north (the freys, and the boltons).

but onto my absolute favorite part of the coming book. clegane vs clegane. it will happen. sir robert strong is clearly the frankenstein mountain, and the hound is still alive, i don't know how i didn't see it earlier. but he is now a part of the faith. when cersei names her champion as robert strong the faith will call for their champion, which will be the hound. i can not wait for the absolute battle of the books when they come together to decide cersei's fate.

Wait, what now? The Hound is alive? I missed this. I seem to recall characters talking about him killing people in ATTC, but I always assumed they were false rumors...because he's dead. Not that "Clegane vs. Clegane" wouldn't be awesome.

but yea as far as tyrion and danaerys go, it seems like GRRM is just wasting time. must have a bit to say regarding them in the coming books. also one last little note about jon and the wildlings, whilst jon is not yet brought back to life the white walkers have to pass through the wall somehow and someway, i have not quite theorized how though.

but now what the hell do i read?

[FranklinTard]

yea the hound lives, he died as 'the hound', but brienne actually ran into him.

remember that it says cersei dies by the hands of 'the younger brother' but not specifically her younger brother, the hound is younger than the mountain though.

brienne runs into him on the quiet isle, where the faith prepares their... uh flock or whatever.

this will explain it much faster than i can though... let me find the page...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...lete-analysis/

[IanTheCool]

A good theory. I still believe him dead though. Just a feeling.

[JBond]

I know I complain a lot of about the last two books, but I still enjoyed reading them and I'm already bummed out I have nothing else to read or watch.

[Dhamon22]

Originally Posted by JBond

What now?

If the blood constitutes that shes able to give birth I could see her returning to Westeros with Tyrion (they have to meet at some point right?), eventually teaming up and falling in love with Jon Snow (Ice and Fire?). Tyrion and Jon ride the other two dragons with Dany in the inevitable war against the Others/Whitewalkers. Martin said the ending will be bittersweet, so I could see Dany giving birth to Jon's baby and one of her and/or Jon die in battle. Jon is a Targaryan (R+L) so the incest works for that family.

Just a crazy theory for the end of the series but was it really that hard to understand? Sorry if it came out like a RedVader post, it sounded good in my head.

[JBond]

Jon being a Targaryan is just a theory at this point, right?

And while we're discussing bittersweet theories, I could see Arya dying but living on in her wolf. Just something about her story and how she's the only one not in contact with her wolf.

[Dhamon22]

Originally Posted by JBond

Jon being a Targaryan is just a theory at this point, right?

And while we're discussing bittersweet theories, I could see Arya dying but living on in her wolf. Just something about her story and how she's the only one not in contact with her wolf.

Sure but it seems like the most obvious of all the questions in the series.

I could definitely see that happening with Arya.

[JBond]

What's that link again that tells me stuff like this? Now that I'm caught up I wouldn't mind being on board with other fans.Although I'd admit it's always been suspscious that we don't know much about Jon's birth. Then again, didn't they explain that it was some nobody in ADWD?

[chewie]

Here's a reread link that I liked quite a bit. You might be interested.


http://adwd-reread.blogspot.com/2011...ns-review.html

[Ser Ty Of Ross]

Originally Posted by JBond

What's that link again that tells me stuff like this? Now that I'm caught up I wouldn't mind being on board with other fans.Although I'd admit it's always been suspscious that we don't know much about Jon's birth. Then again, didn't they explain that it was some nobody in ADWD?

There's been a few names put out for Jons mom assuming he's Neds bastard but what really drives home the Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegars bastard theory is re-reading the Ned chapters in book 1 with it in mind. All the times he references Lyanna's death and her begging him making him promise. Basically promising Lyanna to raise Jon as his own bastard because she knows Robert would kill the baby if he found out the truth.

Re-read the first book recently looking specifically at that and it fits the foreshadowing really nicely.

[FranklinTard]

yea it would be a bigger surprise if he wasn't l+r's son at this point.

and clegane vs clegane will happen. mark my words.

mark them.

[Ser Ty Of Ross]

Originally Posted by FranklinTard

and clegane vs clegane will happen. mark my words.

mark them.

B+

:p

[JBond]

OK, so who's this Aegon kid? A decoy?

[JBond]

Originally Posted by chewie

Here's a reread link that I liked quite a bit. You might be interested.


http://adwd-reread.blogspot.com/2011...ns-review.html

If there is one topic that prevails the whole book, it’s failure. Tyrion fails to reach Daenerys. Daenerys fails to rule her city and to control her dragons. Connington fails to reach Dany. Martell fails to marry Daenerys or to control the dragons. Stannis fails in defeating Ramsay Bolton. Jon fails in persuading the Watch that what he does is necessary. Even Melisandre fails in what she wants to accomplish. The tone is bleak, and occasional sparks of hope are quenched soon enough. The few things that are accomplished are soon turned to ash.

Well put. Yeah, we get it GRRM, you don't take any of that sissy rainbows and sunshine crap. Everyone's miserable, pathetic and dying...and we should enjoy this, why?

I'm surprised he thinks Jon is dead. Didn't Arya seem in trouble at the end of A Game of Thrones? Instead she was getting a haircut. C'mon.

[Justin]

Because, like The Bastard of Bolton, he wants us to enjoy the torture.

[JBond]

Drama works best with good and bad in contrast.

[Justin]

Exactly. That's one of my problems with the series; he seems way too bent on relentlessly torturing the characters that it gets to the point of us just not caring anymore. Right now, there's been literally no catharsis whatsoever--even the moments that are supposed to be hopeful end up with some aspect of it that's dark and grim.

[JBond]

Catharsis. That's the word I've been looking for, thanks. How much you want to bet the Stark's never meet each other again?

[Justin]

I wouldn't be surprised, and that's really something I've been looking forward to.

[Dhamon22]

Originally Posted by JBond

OK, so who's this Aegon kid? A decoy?

Perhaps. Or perhaps is actually is Rhaegar's son. Either way I don't see him surviving too long.

Maybe I'm an optimist but I think the Starks will meet again, at least most of them. Good things will happen in the end along with the bad.

[JBond]

I was being a little unfair, some of them will meet.

...then again, there was a perfect chance for a bittersweet moment where Catelyn and Arya could have seen each other one last time, but instead just missed each other before the Red Wedding. Then there was the scene where Jon comes across Summer, which could have been a ****ing awesome moment, and instead was exetremly understated. Only a chapter later did Jon even think "hmm, that wolf I saw dozens of pages back made me feel funny." At least that part will be awesome in the show.

[chewie]

I don't know if I missed this anywhere in the reading, but does it mention anywhere in the books as to why or how Jaqen H'ghar came to be in a cage going north to The Wall? I would think a man of his skill set would not get captured so easily. Maybe I totally missed something here.

[Justin]

Good question.....

I'm inclined to think that some of the Starks will meet again. Even if it's only Jon and Sansa, or Sansa and Arya. Somehow I doubt there will be some kind of touching family reunion on Winterfell's front lawn.