The Official Presidential Debates 2004 Thread

[Baadshah]

Debate One

Let's discuss Part One of the Debates, which aired today on September 30, 2004

The other parts will be discussed later on this thread
Part Two is to air on October 8th

Be sure to vote for your President here
http://www.comingsoon.net/forums/showthread.php?t=29918

But, this thread is to discuss the debates and the issues that each President addresses and how they perform.

[Baadshah]

I thought they discussed the issues properly

I think Kerry did a better job on discussing his topics, but he keeps using his time to critize the bush campaign on what they did for the last four years.

It was funny to see Bush's reaction to Kerry's speeches. Every time Kerry mention something about Bush, the TV screen splits in to two so we see Bush reactions. It looked like he had SOUR CANDY in his mouth

[Drizzt240]

I think Bush looked like a dumbass. He said, "ummmmm" too many times.

[Baadshah]

I noticed that too
And he mispronouced so maaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyy words

[flukeman]

Kerry was much more collected, he seemed more intelligent and aware of the facts, and he could speak with authority and composure. That's more than I can say for his opponent.

[Drizzt240]

I don't know if you noticed but at his closing speech it sounded to me like he said , "If I remain to be your Presidenth ......."

[Baadshah]

i know

I am so waiting for the Jon Stewart Show, I like to see his take on the debates. It's going to be hilarious

[flukeman]

I couldn't tell what the hell he said half the time.....oh, apart from "nucular" - that just kills me every time.

Anyway, I'd say Kerry definitely got the upper hand in this debate.

[Drizzt240]

i know

I am so waiting for the Jon Stewart Show, I like to see his take on the debates. It's going to be hilarious
Man! I love that show! Watch it almost every night! He called me a nerd the other night!

[equipe]

Anyway, I'd say Kerry definitely got the upper hand in this debate.

That's what I wanted to hear.

[Brock Landers]

Ehhhh, I really didn't take to either candidate in this debate. Both really haven't appealed to me yet - but if I had to pick a "winner" for this debate....Kerry.

[Boone]

I noticed that too
And he mispronouced so maaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyy wordsAt least Bush doesn't flip-flop his opinions... Kerry is just a two-faced smooth talker...Bush is straight to the point!

[stonefaced_1]

While I agree that Kerry didn't do anything to hurt himself, he didn't do much to help his cause either. He is down in the polls and this was his chance to come out and show everyone who he really is. He put up enough of an effort to keep the race close, but not enough to completely close the gap on President Bush. Kerry was very articulate and let's be honest looked a little smarter than Bush, but Bush made his points pretty clear, and got his message across.

Bottom line: Neither did enough to change the race one way or another. Kerry might close the gab a bit, but the next two debates are what are going to be important.

[Boone]

"We need to provide our troops with better armour."
Um, then why did you vote against the 87 billion dollar supplemental Kerry?

[stonefaced_1]

He did contridict himself on that, but I was surprised Bush didn't go after him more on his senate record on defense. That was the biggest surprise to me.

[Boone]

http://www.bushcountry.org/cartoons/images/senator_flip_flop.jpg

Kerry is so pompous and smug...

[KeyserLime]

I might bring in the HaXXors and L33t's opinions of the debate tonight.

*Ahem

*Cough

Teh Bush g0t pwnzored hard b**ches t0night

[Boone]

Hahahahaha.
I just loved the way he kept repeating that we went to war without any strong alliances.
*cough*England, Japan, Poland, Australia, Bulgaria*cough*
Keep digging your own grave Kerry with the world's foreign leaders.

[Boone]

Kerry flip flopped in the Debate!!!!!!!!!

Beginning of the debate:

"Saddam Hussein was not a threat."

End of the debate:

"Saddam Hussein was a grave threat."


Beginning of the debate:

"I will not give a veto to any country when it comes to defending the American people."

End of the debate:

"We must pass a Global Test before we set out on military action."


BTW...WTF IS THIS GLOBAL TEST THAT WE HAVE TO PASS TO DEFEND OURSELVES?

[equipe]

Hahahahaha.
I just loved the way he kept repeating that we went to war without any strong alliances.
*cough*England, Japan, Poland, Australia, Bulgaria*cough*
Keep digging your own grave Kerry with the world's foreign leaders.

It's not much of an alliance when you are doing 90% of the work, taking 90% of the casualties and paying 90% of the costs.

[Boone]

Bush Clobbered Kerry....

Just by showing up!!!!
You must actually READ what that moron Kerry said...it is scary that this man actually states both sides of every issue and then takes both sides as well....IN A DEBATE.....
Kerry is unfit to be dogcatcher...much less POTUS.

[KeyserLime]

Hahahahaha.
I just loved the way he kept repeating that we went to war without any strong alliances.
*cough*England, Japan, Poland, Australia, Bulgaria*cough*
Keep digging your own grave Kerry with the world's foreign leaders.

I'm sorry to make a direct attack to you, but you must a huge frickin moron if you're bagging kerry for repeating himself. We both know its HARD WORK to debate like this, and we all know the HARD WORK these candidates put into their speeches but we all know that the HARD WORK of kerry was better than that of George "I look like a deer caught in headlights cuz i dont know what im saying, someone call Dick Cheny" Bush. His HARD WORK obviously didnt pay off, as he himself looked like a total moron tonight.

Seriously, I hope your kidding when you say that he worked Kerry in the debate, if you watch the debate from a non biased point of view you would see Kerry had his facts, looked nervous in the beginning and then was fine after the first 2 questions where as bush would say Umm and pause for the first ten and then speak very slowly about the topic. His HARD WORK wasn't even noticable after the debate and i think its clear now that if the debates keep going this way, and with kerry's HARD WORK, we won't have to endure another 4 years of bush sovereignty.

[Boone]

I'm sorry to make a direct attack to you, but you must a huge frickin moron
:nono: that's not very nice....

Read the transcript....MSNBC just stated that the Republicans TOOK FIVE quotes from Kerry in the debate and will now run them in commercials......

So who do you think is going to benefit from this debate?

Kerry burried himself with the obvious flip flops and that stupid GLOBAL TEST that we have to pass to defend ourselves......

[KeyserLime]

:nono: that's not very nice.... @55hole!

and your reply to all the comments against Bush?

Besides, in my defense, you first used the term moron against kerry, not nice ;) then you posted a picture which many would deem unflattering, so dont turn on the innocent face for me.

[flukeman]

At least Bush doesn't flip-flop his opinions... Kerry is just a two-faced smooth talker...Bush is straight to the point!

But "straight to the point" when it is the wrong point won't get you very far.

I'm so sick of this flip-flopping ****. It's called a learning process and then making an informed decision. We can all look back and say "well, he voted this way but now he thinks this" but we don't take into account that new facts are turning up every day, and sometimes, when new information is presented, it takes a little THINKING and it might require a shift in that thinking.

Charging bullheadedly straight ahead without considering the possibility that he may be wrong and may need to change his views in light of new information is what really pisses me off about Bush. And it was evident in tonight's debate.

[JBond]

I'm sorry to make a direct attack to you, but you must a huge frickin moron if you're bagging kerry for repeating himself.

Apologies don't cut it, DON'T personally attack anyone here on the boards. Please. Thank you.

[Oj]

Kerry flip flopped in the Debate!!!!!!!!!

Beginning of the debate:

"Saddam Hussein was not a threat."

End of the debate:

"Saddam Hussein was a grave threat."


Beginning of the debate:

"I will not give a veto to any country when it comes to defending the American people."

End of the debate:

"We must pass a Global Test before we set out on military action."


BTW...WTF IS THIS GLOBAL TEST THAT WE HAVE TO PASS TO DEFEND OURSELVES?

I believe he stated that Hussein did not pose an imminent threat to America. He never stated that Hussein was not a threat in general.

Invasion of a sovereign nation is hardly defense. I'd call that offense. I believe he was stating that he would seriously attempt to seek global approval before taking offensive military action. He made it very clear in the debate that Bush did not make a genuine attempt to rally world leaders. Sure, he garnered a few, but as Kerry stated, it was much weaker than expected.

Kerry's points in this debate were very clear, and argued with little efficacy by Bush. I'd say Kerry "won."

[southern]

He never stated that Hussein was not a threat in general.
he did last Oct!

i watched it for a bit but i just can't stand listening to Kerry contradict himself on EVERYTHING!

[KeyserLime]

I don't see why people are really getting so mad a Kerry for changing his mind on Iraq. Bush may be sticking to his guns, but that doesn't mean he's right.

[Oj]

I'll clarify. When Kerry was presented with the false intelligence that pointed to WMD's in Iraq, he, as most of Congress, felt invasion was a viable option. Kerry felt diplomacy was very important to the matter, and even stated so when Bush began the invasion. Kerry's consistent statement was that Bush was too hasty in leading the country to war, refusing to utilize all provisions of the UN, as he said he would. So the fact was that Hussein was not an imminent threat, but America was led to believe he was. I don't recall Kerry ever saying that Hussein posed no threat all.

This entire flip-flop campaign is a perfect example of policians' abilities to grossly distort and falsely contextualize statements.

[Crow T. Robot]

I missed the debate. I had class. I'll be sure to see the SNL version on saturday though. :D

[Yuney]

I thought Bush did a better job, but I'm a little biased. Kerry was very composed though and I think that worked in his favor a bit. The thing that bothered me about Kerry was him attacking Bush at every turn and just talking about his "plan" maybe once during the whole thing. "Bush was wrong, Bush was wrong"...blah blah blah. Just because he is wrong in your opinion does not necessarily make him wrong. Kerry needed to show people what he was about and he didn't. I think Bush answered his questions in a respectable manner. He should have kept his composure a little better though, is my only complaint.

Oh and Kerry slipped up on some words to. He said Russiar for Russia at one point, and there were some other mistakes also. So it wasn't just Bush.

[ZombieMan]

Personally I thought Bush acted like a moron and mispronounced alot of words. Kerry did most excellent!

[PsychoMike]

The debates are compleate BS. The candates are not even allowed to get into a real discussion of the issues. They make their sound bits and then are done.

They are controled by the Democrates and Republicans for the sole benefite of the 2 parties. The candidates aren't even allowed to talk to third party candidates. Political parties need to stay out of running the debates and return it to a truely independent organization to run the debates.

So much for democracy. :rolleyes:

[ip_guru]

Summary:

Kerry clearly won the debate on style, Bush clearly won the debate on substance. However, since style takes precendence over substance (just look at the comments here) I'd say you have to give the overall edge to Kerry.


To respond to one comment made here: Kerry's flip-flopping is an issue. If it were as simple as new evidence, new position, then that is something that can be defended. However, he still contradicts himself, even after learning new evidence/information - he even contradicted himself during the debate.

Here it is after the first debate, and people are still trying to figure out what Kerry's final position is on some of these issues. Two days ago he was asked if the war in Iraq is worth it, and he said: "it depends on the outcome." That is not called taking a position. That makes Kerry's constant changing of position a valid issue.

[flukeman]

Oh and Kerry slipped up on some words to. He said Russiar for Russia at one point, and there were some other mistakes also. So it wasn't just Bush.

That's just from being around the Boston accent for too long :)

[equipe]

I was just looking at the insta-polls on the news websites. I found it interesting. Geee only FOX has Bush winning.

CNN:
Bush 21%, Kerry 71%, Evenly matched: 7%

MSNBC:
Bush 38%, Kerry 68%

ABCnews:
Bush 36%, Kerry 45%, Tie 17%

FOXnews:
Bush 41%, Kerry 38%, Tie 15%, Did not watch 5%, None of the above 1%

CBSNews:
Bush 9.87%, Kerry 88.82%, Tie 1.31%

[Oj]

Here it is after the first debate, and people are still trying to figure out what Kerry's final position is on some of these issues. Two days ago he was asked if the war in Iraq is worth it, and he said: "it depends on the outcome." That is not called taking a position. That makes Kerry's constant changing of position a valid issue.

I think he stated pretty clearly his position on Iraq. As he sees it, the war was a mistake. But, as stated, he feels that we must rectify that mistake as best we can, preferably with the help of foreign nations.

Of course the war is only "worth it" if there is a favorable outcome. That's an obvious answer to the question. If we fight for years in Iraq, only for it to fall back to its state before our invasion, the war and the lives lost in that war wouldn't quite be "worth it." If we manage to make Iraq a better country by the end of this mess, it would be quite worthwhile. I don't see what problem you have with his answer to that question. It's not like he was trying to state his position on the war with that comment. He was merely stating a fact of the war.

[Yuney]

Actually he didn't state anything about what he would have done except not go to war in Iraq. It's really easy to say that you wouldn't do something, but unless you have been put in the position Bush has been in, no one knows what they would have actually done. I'm glad we went to war in Iraq. At least we have a President with enough balls to do something, instead of a coward that will let terrorists invade our country.

Can Kerry not have an intelligent conversation without bashing into Bush? Is it even possible? I am so sick and tired of all the mud slinging on both sides. People need to grow up, and look at the real issues. The issue shouldn't be about if President Bush has a Texas drawl and talks slowly because of that and his accent. But thats what people want to make it about.

[Oj]

Wasn't Bush in power during the September 11 attacks? This entire reasoning that Bush can protect against a terrorist attack is a little absurd, considering the greatest terrorist attack on American soil took place under his presidency.

And I really wish people would pay more attention to these things. Kerry repeatedly stated his stance on the war last night, but so many of you continue to misrepresent his statements. It seems to be the best defense the Republicans have at this point.

[Yuney]

I realize that Bush was in office during the 01 attacks, but you know.. America never thought it could happen to us, so it came as a huge surprise. Now we know we are vunerable, and I don't see how Kerry getting rid of nuclear weapons will help us be any safer. In fact, when he said he was going to do that towards the end of the debate, it kind of scared me. Some countries may not attack us BECAUSE we do have the threat of nukes we could use on them if it did come down to a war.

I listened to everything Kerry said last night, because I was waiting for him to prove himself to me. I am not so closed minded that I don't at least listen to the opposing side. Honestly, all I heard was bashing from Kerry, and I think thats why Bush looked so defensive in the first place. I am sure he is tired of people putting him down on what an awful mistake he made going to Iraq. He made his decision, and he's standing by it. At least he's not constantly changing his viewpoints on things. I think this election has gotten really nasty on both sides, and its not helping the nation come together because of all the mudslinging. Just my 2cents..

[Oj]

Get off this idea of Kerry constantly changing his mind. I've not seen one convincing "flip-flop." I even went so far as to go to the Bush website, since all the Republicans that were so convinced of their existence could never name them.

And I can't comprehend why it's become honorable to stand by a decision, especially when that decision has been repeatedly proven wrong. If you prefer a president who is too stubborn to admit the truth and apologize, so be it. I, for one, am sick of it.

And Kerry didn't propose to disarm this nation. I believe he mentioned halting research in nuclear weapons, which is an honorable thing to do if we are to set an example for the rest of the world. Disarming fringe nations around the world would help to protect not only this nation, but the rest of the world.

[flukeman]

And I can't comprehend why it's become honorable to stand by a decision, especially when that decision has been repeatedly proven wrong. If you prefer a president who is too stubborn to admit the truth and apologize, so be it. I, for one, am sick of it.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's bullheaded. It also seems to be the only thing Bush can say for himself, and keeps on repeating and repeating and repeating....

[Yuney]

I copied this from the Bush website- It shows the issues Kerry has flip/flopped on....

Debate Highlights: John Kerry's Inability to Close His Credibility Gap or Articulate a Clear Foreign Policy Vision

Kerry Flip-Flops On Iraq's Ties To Al Qaeda

Tonight's Flip: In Response To Question Four John Kerry Said Iraq Was Not Close To The War On Terror Until The President Invaded It.

Yesterday's Flop: Kerry Warned Of Saddam's Ties To Terrorism. SEN. JOHN KERRY: "[T]here are set of principles here that are very large, larger in some measure than I think has been adequately conveyed, both internationally and certainly to the American people. Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. That is a threat to the stability of the Middle East. It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis. It is a threat even to regions near but not exactly in the Middle East." (Sen. John Kerry, Press Conference, 2/23/98)

Kerry Confuses His Position On The Iraq War

Kerry Tonight: “The President And I Have Always Agreed On That, And From The Beginning, I Did Vote To Give The Authority Because I Thought Saddam Hussein Was A Threat.” (Sen. John Kerry, First Presidential Debate, Miami, FL, 9/30/04)

Kerry Earlier This Month: Iraq Is "The Wrong War In The Wrong Place At The Wrong Time." "Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry on Monday called the invasion of Iraq 'the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time' and said his goal was to withdraw U.S. troops in his first White House term." (Patricia Wilson, " Kerry on Iraq: Wrong War, Wrong Place, Wrong Time", Reuters, 9/6/04)

Kerry In May 2003: In First Dem Debate, Kerry Strongly Supported President's Action In Iraq. SEN. JOHN KERRY: "I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him." (ABC News, Democrat Presidential Candidate Debate, Columbia, SC, 5/3/03)

Kerry's False Statement On Supporting Our Troops

In Response To Question Four John Kerry Said, "My Message To The Troops Is Also Thank You For What They're Doing But It's Also Help Is On The Way. I Believe Those Troops Deserve Better Than What They Are Getting Today." (Sen. John Kerry, First Presidential Debate, Miami, FL, 9/30/04)

The Real Record: Kerry Voted Against $87 Billion In Funding To Equip Our Troops In Iraq And Afghanistan With Essential Supplies Like Ammunition And Body Armor.

Kerry Has Already Taken Eight Positions On The $87 Billion:

* Kerry Said It Would Be "Irresponsible" To Vote Against Funding Troops. Doyle McManus (LA Times): "If that amendment does not pass, will you then vote against the $87 billion?" Kerry: "I don't think any United States senator is going to abandon our troops and recklessly leave Iraq to – to whatever follows as a result of simply cutting and running. That's irresponsible." (CBS' "Face the Nation," 9/14/03)

* Kerry Claims "I Actually Did Vote For The $87 Billion Before I Voted Against It." (Sen. John Kerry, Speech In Huntington, WV, 3/16/04)

* Kerry Later Said He Was "Proud" That He And Edwards Voted Against $87 Billion In Funding For U.S. Soldiers. "Here is the value that John Edwards and I will put in place. I'm proud to say that John joined me in voting against that $87 billion when we knew the policy had to be changed." (John Kerry, Remarks at "Women's Voices: A Luncheon with John Kerry," Boston, MA, 7/12/04)

* Kerry Then Said His Vote Against Body Armor And Supplies For Troops Was "Complicated." (MSNBC's "Imus in the Morning," 7/15/04)

* Kerry Even Said His Vote For The War And Against Funding For Our Troops Was "Not A Flip-Flop."(CBS' "Evening News," 7/21/04)

* Kerry Then Defended His Vote Against The $87 Billion By Saying President Bush "Didn't Have A Plan To Win The Peace, It Was Irresponsible To Give [President Bush] A Blank Check That Gave $20 Billion That Was Going To Go…To Halliburton And All These Other Companies." (Mike Allen And Lois Romano, "Closing Laps In Race To November," The Washington Post, 9/4/04)

* Kerry Said He's "Glad" He Voted Against The Iraq Supplemental. KERRY: "Because I saw what was happening. I voted against it -- absolutely voted against it. I'm glad I voted against it. Because we now see that that $20 billion hasn't even been spent effectively. Most of it's going to Halliburton in fraud and no-bid contracts which is completely inappropriate. I'd fire Halliburton tomorrow." (CBS' "The Late Show With David Letterman," 9/20/04)

* Kerry Said His Vote Against The Iraq Supplemental "Was A Protest. Sometimes You Have To Stand Up And Be Counted." KERRY: "But it reflects the truth of the position, which is I fought to have the wealthiest people in America share the burden of paying for that war. It was a protest. Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted, and that's what I did." (ABC's "Good Morning America," 9/29/04)

Kerry's False Statement On The President's Truthfulness

In Response To Question Nine John Kerry Claimed He’s “Never, Ever” Used Word “Lying” In Reference To President Bush On Iraq. JIM LEHRER: “New question, Senator Kerry. Two minutes. You’ve repeatedly accused President Bush, not here tonight but elsewhere before, of not telling the truth about Iraq. Essentially, of lying to the American people about Iraq. Give us some examples of what you consider to be his not telling the truth.” SEN. KERRY: “Well, I’ve never, ever used the harshest word as you just did.” (Sen. John Kerry, First Presidential Debate, Miami, FL, 9/30/04)

In September 2003, Kerry Said Bush Administration “Lied” And “Misled.” “This administration has lied to us. They have misled us. And they have broken their promises to us. The president promised to the people and the Congress that he would build an international coalition, respect the United Nations’ process and only go to war as a last resort. I will tell you that from my war fighting experience, I believe there is a test for a president as to how you go to war. And that test is whether or not you can look in the eyes of parents and say to them, ‘I did everything possible to avoid the loss of your son and daughter, but we had no other choice in order to protect the security of our nation,’ and I know this president fails that test in Iraq.” (Sen. John Kerry, Campaign Event, Claremont, NH, 9/20/03)

Kerry Flip-Flops On Preemption

Tonight's Flip: In Response To Question 13 John Kerry Said "The President Always Has The Right, And Always Has Had The Right For Preemptive Strike.” (Sen. John Kerry, First Presidential Debate, Miami, FL, 9/30/04)

Yesterday's Flop: In 2003 Boston Globe Guest Commentary, Kerry Denounced "The Threat Of Military Preemption Against Terrorist Organizations." "It is troubling that this administration's approach to the menace of loose nuclear materials is long on rhetoric but short on execution. It relies unwisely on the threat of military preemption against terrorist organizations, which can be defeated if they are found but will not be deterred by our military might." (John Kerry, Op-Ed, "Moscow Treaty Is Full Of Holes, The Boston Globe, 3/5/03)

Kerry Criticizes President Bush's "Doctrine Of Preemption." GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: "(Off Camera) ... you would have your own doctrine of preemption, then?" SENATOR JOHN KERRY: "George, every president from the beginning, uh, of time, has had a sufficient doctrine of preemption. Throughout the Cold War, the entire first strike doctrine was based on a doctrine of preemption. But that's very different from the Bush doctrine of preemption. I don't subscribe to the George Bush doctrine as he has described it, which is very different. It's a preemptive war for the purpose of removing, simply removing the dictator." (ABC's "This Week," 2/22/04)

Kerry's False Statement On UN Involvement

Kerry's False Statement: Kerry Denigrates The UN Coalition. In response to question nine John Kerry said, “The United Nations, Kofi Annan, offered help after Baghdad fell and we never picked them up on that and did what was necessary to transfer authority and to transfer reconstruction. It was always American run. Secondly, when we went in, there were three countries: Great Britain, Australia and the United States. That's not a grand coalition. We can do better.” (Sen. John Kerry, First Presidential Debate, Miami, FL, 9/30/04)

A Multinational Force Of Some 30 Nations Continues To Help Secure A Free Iraq. PRESIDENT BUSH: "The multinational force of some 30 nations continues to help secure a free Iraq, and we are grateful for the service and sacrifice of all." (President's Radio Address, 9/25/04)

In Addition to the United States, Other Coalition Members Are Providing Approximately 25,000 Troops To Assist Our Efforts In Iraq. (Robert Burns, "U.S. Offensive Hinges on Iraq Elections," The Associated Press, 9/29/04)

[secant]

I have just one thing to say about this...
why, oh, why, can't we have just one presidential candidate who can correctly pronounce "nuclear"??

IT....IS....NOT... "nuke-you-lar"

for crying out loud. yep. the country is going to the dogs.

[flukeman]

From johnkerry.com:

BUSH vs. REALITY

BUSH: Mixed messages are bad for our troops, efforts in war on terror.

REALITY

Mixed Messages on Winning the War on Terror
“Can’t Win The War On Terror” Asked “Can we win [the war on terror]?” Bush said, “I don’t think you can win it. But I think you can create conditions so that the - those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world.” [NBC, “The Today Show,” 8/30/04]

Mixed Messages on Osama Bin Laden
QUESTION: Do you want bin Laden dead?
BUSH: I want justice. And there’s an old poster out west, that I recall, that said, “Wanted, Dead or Alive.” [Bush Remarks, 9/17/01, emphasis added]

BUSH: “And [Osama Bin Laden is] just – he’s a person who has now been marginalized. His network is -- his host government has been destroyed. He’s the ultimate parasite who found weakness, exploited it, and met his match…So I don’t know where he is. Nor -- you know, I just don’t spend that much time on him really, to be honest with you. I…I truly am not that concerned about him.” [Bush Remarks, 3/13/02]

Mixed Messages on Protecting the Homeland
Bush Thought Homeland Security Cabinet Position Was "Just Not Necessary” And Blocked Its Creation. *In October 2001, White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer said Bush opposed creating Office of Homeland Security position for Ridge. "[T]he president has suggested to members of Congress that they do not need to make this a statutory post, that he [Ridge] does not need Cabinet rank, for example, there does not need to be a Cabinet-level Office of Homeland Security is because there is such overlap among the various agencies, because every agency of the government has security concerns," Fleischer said. [White House Press Briefing, 10/24/01]
Posted on September 30, 2004 at 10:25 PM
Debates | Entry link

BUSH vs. REALITY

BUSH RHETORIC: HE “HOPES” HIS POLICY IN NORTH KOREA WORKS

While Bush Failed to Have a Plan, Kerry Will Make it A Priority To End Nuclear Weapons Programs In North Korea, Kerry will make it a priority to end nuclear weapons programs in states like North Korea and Iran. As President, Kerry will continue the six party negotiations, but will also be prepared to talk directly with North Korea. John Kerry would adopt a comprehensive approach based on the hard realities that confront us. While Kerry would maintain all options, including military ones, he would be willing to negotiate on a range of issues of concern to both parties, including North Korea’s concerns for its security and economic development. [NYT, 9/12/04], [Washington Post, 7/9/04] [Washington Post, 8/6/04]

North Korean Nuclear Capability Has Quadrupled Under Bush’s Watch While He Sat By and Failed to Do Anything. The Bush administration's erratic handling of the North Korean nuclear crisis has served only to create confusion and put North Korea's despotic leader, Kim Jong Il, in the driver's seat. Bush initially said he would “not tolerate nuclear weapons in North Korea,” yet since he took office, North Korea’s nuclear capability has “quadrupled,” with U.S. intelligence services estimating that Pyongyang now has fuel for up to eight nuclear weapons. According to Bush Administration officials, “The United States has determined that North Korea is working on new ballistic missile systems designed to deliver nuclear warheads and that it is testing the technology by proxy in Iran.” [ABC, “This Week, 9/12/04; Christian Science Monitor, 9/15/04; Associated Press, 8/5/04; NYT, 9/12/04]

Former Bush Special Envoy to North Korea Said Bush Lacked An Effective Strategy To Deal With North Korea. “Charles Pritchard, formerly Secretary of State Colin Powell's top official dealing with North Korea, has warned for months that "the White House lacks an effective strategy to dissuade North Korea from building up its nuclear arms." Under Bush's watch, "North Korea's nuclear arsenal, which was once thought to number one or two weapons, appears to be growing substantially." According to Pritchard, the situation has deteriorated because "the administration has neither offered much of a carrot nor wielded a stick." The administration has refused to engage North Korea in direct negotiations or "put the North Koreans on notice that further developments will trigger economic sanctions or perhaps even military actions." [United Press International, 9/21/04]
Posted on September 30, 2004 at 10:14 PM
Debates | Entry link | Comments (5)

BUSH vs. REALITY

BUSH

Iraq wasn’t a diversion from the War on Terror

REALITY:

BUSH DIVERTED FROM WAR ON TERROR

The rush to war in Iraq took the pressure off of Bin Laden and al Qaeda. In 2002, troops from the 5th Special Forces Group who specialize in the Middle East were pulled out of the hunt for Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan to prepare for their next assignment: Iraq. The CIA, meanwhile, was stretched badly in its capacity to collect, translate and analyze information coming from Afghanistan. US Intelligence officials said that as much as half of the intelligence and special forces assets in Afghanistan and Pakistan were diverted to support the war in Iraq. [USA Today, 3/29/04; KnightRidder, 9/5/03]

AND BECAUSE HE DIDN’T PLAN

Secret Joint Chiefs Report: Pentagon Planners Were Not Given Enough Time. In August 2003, the Joint Chiefs of Staff prepared a secret report assessing the post-war planning for Iraq. The report blamed “setbacks in Iraq on a flawed and rushed war-planning process.” It also said “planners were not given enough time” to plan for reconstruction. [Washington Times, 9/3/03, emphasis added]

WE ARE NOW BOGGED DOWN IN IRAQ

Security in Iraq Has Continually Deteriorated. On average, U.S. forces are now being attacked well over 60 times per day. This is a 20% increase from the three months before the transfer of sovereignty. Each month since June has seen a higher death toll for American soldiers: 42 were killed in June, 54 were killed in July, 66 were killed in August, and already, more than 77 have been killed in September. In the initial invasion of Iraq, 138 American soldiers were killed; since the handover, over 239 have been killed. [Los Angeles Times, 8/31/04; Reuters, 9/3/04; Brookings Institution, “Iraq Index,” 9/29/04]
Posted on September 30, 2004 at 10:01 PM
Debates | Entry link

Hunt down terrorists

1. Bush: you gotta have a president who'll persue the terrorists

But:
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, responding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)

Posted on September 30, 2004 at 09:34 PM
Debates | Entry link

[Oj]

Like I said... I already read those. Many are taken out of context, and are largely unconvincing to me. Here's an example.



Yesterday's Flop: Kerry Warned Of Saddam's Ties To Terrorism. SEN. JOHN KERRY: "[T]here are set of principles here that are very large, larger in some measure than I think has been adequately conveyed, both internationally and certainly to the American people. Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. That is a threat to the stability of the Middle East. It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis. It is a threat even to regions near but not exactly in the Middle East." (Sen. John Kerry, Press Conference, 2/23/98)


So the fact that Saddam may try to develop weapons is a potential threat to global terrorist activities. Where does he say that Saddam is directly tied to terrorism?

[Yuney]

But of course they are largely unconvincing to you, you're a Democrat. Just like anything you say about Bush, I'm going to defend, because I'm a Republican. I don't think the war in Iraq is a mistake, so Bush standing by his decision to me is honorable. You think the war is a mistake. I'm really not trying to convince anyone to believe the way I do, we all have our own innate values that we are going to stick to. I think that both sides are both mixed up, but I get so worked up over these political issues that I just have to spout off my opinion. I don't really think either one of us is going to convince the other either way. So I'm just gonna shut my mouth for now ;)

[Oj]

From MSN:

"As part of his case that Kerry has sent mixed messages, Bush asserted that “he voted against the $87 billion supplemental to provide equipment for our troops, and then said he actually did vote for it before he voted against it.”

While Bush meant it as a jab, this was an accurate description of the Senate process. Kerry supported a different version of the bill, which was opposed by the administration. At the time, many Republicans were uncomfortable with the administration’s plans and the White House had to threaten a veto against the congressional version to bring reluctant lawmakers in line. In a floor statement explaining his vote, Kerry said he favored the $67 billion for the troops on the ground, but he faulted the administration’s $20 billion request for reconstruction."

Just wanted to clear that one up.

[Drizzt240]

http://www.ajax.org/images/people/bush-george-w-2.jpg

Jessia Klein said, "I love it when Bush refers to al Qaeda as a "group of folks." They're a "group of folks" who hate America. A "group of folks" usually refers to something more low key, like The Mamas and the Papas. Also, he just meant to say we want to capture Osama bin Laden and said Saddam Hussein instead. Freudian slip much?"

[PsychoMike]

From MSN:

"As part of his case that Kerry has sent mixed messages, Bush asserted that “he voted against the $87 billion supplemental to provide equipment for our troops, and then said he actually did vote for it before he voted against it.”

While Bush meant it as a jab, this was an accurate description of the Senate process. Kerry supported a different version of the bill, which was opposed by the administration. At the time, many Republicans were uncomfortable with the administration’s plans and the White House had to threaten a veto against the congressional version to bring reluctant lawmakers in line. In a floor statement explaining his vote, Kerry said he favored the $67 billion for the troops on the ground, but he faulted the administration’s $20 billion request for reconstruction."

Just wanted to clear that one up.

Thanks for finding this information Oj.

I think things like this are important to bring up. Most congressional bills contain alot of stuff that dosen't have anything to do with the main porpose of the bill. Alot of times congressmen feel that the extra stuff is a waste and that waste outweighs the importance of the original bill.

[eclipsedman]

Does anyone know where to find transcripts of the debates? I had to work and missed them.

[Oj]

From the official site (http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html).

[Frizzo the Clown]

There have been a number of people here that have said "I'll disagree with any you've said because I'm a Republican," or "I'll disagree with anything you say because I'm a Democrat," or whatever. What I don't understand is...have these bull**** party party politics diffused our abilities to think about whats right and whats wrong on our own? Why do issues like war have to be based soley on what what "political parties" think? I'm not trying to change anyone's way of thinking, Democrat or Republican, it just seems that so many people listen more to what their partys say...and if both sides just thought about what was right...morally, ethically, legally..whatever....and look at them with open minds, with the same information in front of them, they might actually agree. But instead, we're too busy looking at whos a better person..."this guy is an idiot," "that guy is a flipflopper," whatever. And why do we look at those things instead of the issues? Because the parties tell us to. They keep us focused on petty personality flaws so that we can't focus on the real issues. Both parties do this. They use thier status as "politcal leaders" to tell a lot of us what it is we should be concerned about in the election, instead of letting most of us think for ourselves. We all live in the same world. We all want to be treated with dignity and respect. We all want to be safe. And no matter who wins the election, we're all going to have the same President. All I'm saying is, don't defend an idea or a candidate just because he's the same political party as you. Do it because you feel that what he believes is right. And don't believe in various ideas just because your political party tells you thats what you have to believe in...do it because you believe in it. On your own.

[Yuney]

I don't believe in anything because someone tells me to believe in it. I believe in things because I feel they are right or wrong. What I meant by saying that I'm going to defend anything you say about Bush because I'm a Republican meant that my beliefs stand firm with the Republican side on most issues. And I disagree with most values that Democrats hold, not because someone told me to, but because of how I view life in general. I'm more than willing to look at the facts on both side, and I have changed my mind many times in life because I was willing to listen. I know there's always the possiblity that I am wrong, and thats fine. I guess I just think we should treat the President with respect even if you don't agree with his views. If it was Kerry that won, I would treat him with respect and not go around and call him a dumbass and such. Anyways, I think I'll leave this topic alone for good now. Just wanted to explain that I am not defending Bush merely because I'm a Republican, and I'm sorry that I came off that way.

[Frizzo the Clown]

I admit, that its what you said that set me off on my little tirade, but it was in no way directed soley at you. I've known many people, on both sides of the coin that believe things simply because someone tells them its what they should believe, just because they're affiliated with that group. I didn't want you thinking that it was entirely directed at you..it wasn't necessarily directed at anyone..just a general statement that was, I admit, triggered by your statement, but directed towards Democrats and Reublicans or whatever. Of course, I seriously doubt anyone would actually admit that they only believe something because their political party tells them that they should...even if that is the case. Again, that doesn't mean I don't believe you, its just general statement.

[Yuney]

^^ Yeah I kinda picked up on the fact that my post probably contributed to yours ;) You're entitled to believe whatever you what to about me. What I said yesterday was out of frustration with the whole campaign in general. I just feel like I'm talking to a brick wall sometimes, and that people will not even listen to what I'm saying because it goes against their beliefs. I have been guilty of that in the past, but with the debates I did listen to what Kerry had to say. I'm sure there are things about the war that the general public will never find out.. so we must make our decisions from the media, and what we feel in our hearts is right. I'm really not a closed-minded b---- though.

I think I will stick to lighter subjects on the boards from now on. Too much emotion involved in these types. Just couldn't keep my mouth shut though...

[Baadshah]

Debate (Vice President)

Let's discuss the Debate of the Vice Presidents, duking it out, which aired today on October 5, 2004

This will lead to the Presidential Debates Part TWO
Part Two is to air on October 8th

***
Personally, i'm not going to bother watching. But, feel free to discuss

[equipe]

I'm listening to the VP debate right now on-line.

[equipe]

That was the most boring debate in history. Cheney is dryer then the sahara and Edwards ain't exactly luminous either. It might have been the format though. They need more direct debates.

[Baadshah]

ya, i listen for like 5 minutes, it was a totaly bore

[Baadshah]

Correction
The Debate Part Two is to be held Tommorrow, not Thursday

See, you tommorrow

[Baadshah]

Stay Tuned Tonight at 8PM for the Debate Part Two

[PublicEnemy#1]

Cheney Definately drilled edwards into the ground on that debate. Especially when he mentioned the fact that edwards had missed 80-something meetings in the senate. John Kerry sure picked a great running-mate. And i will admit kerry looked a bit more intelligent in the presidential debate. But he changed his point-of-view quite a few times. He bashed george bush for not having a plan in the war for iraq and stated that he did have a plan. The only problem was he did not present his plan.
And i heard that Kerry was a Criminal of war. Has anyone else heard anything about such accusations?

[equipe]

You are worried that Kerry is a war criminal and George W Bush, the man who lead the United States into an illegal war, and approved extreme methods in information extraction... to the rest of the world known as torture, is currently sitting in the White House. There is a reason that the United States refused to be a part of the international criminal court. It's so that they Americans can never be prosecuted in it.

[Baadshah]

Debate Two

Let's discuss Part Two of the Debates, which aired today on October 8, 2004

[Boro]

both candidates dodged their questions.

[equipe]

neither won on substance because there was no substance. Answer the damn questions!

[eclipsedman]

You are worried that Kerry is a war criminal and George W Bush, the man who lead the United States into an illegal war, and approved extreme methods in information extraction... to the rest of the world known as torture, is currently sitting in the White House. There is a reason that the United States refused to be a part of the international criminal court. It's so that they Americans can never be prosecuted in it.

With all thats happened in regards to terrorism I find it hard to believe that anyone has a problem with getting information from terrorists that will stop other acts from happening, even if it is torture. You have to remember these people don't care about life, why should we care about theirs?

Has these debates changed anyones mind about how they will vote in Nov.? Just curious, they haven't changed mine.

[equipe]

So you endorse torture. Wouldn't that bring the United States down to the level of the terrorists. What ever happened to the Moral highground? Isn't the United States of America supposed to be the world leaders in promoting freedom and justice. Now if you believe that torture is justafied, I feel sorry for you. What if it was you or someone you know being tortured in a foreign country protecting their national security? Is it only OK to torture someone who isn't like you?

[Boro]

since when is eclipsedman the united states?

[equipe]

I used the Term 'United States' because it is the policy of current administration to allow intensive interrogation. I understand however, that a lot, or even the majority of the people do not condone torture. Sorry for any generalizations I have made that upset you.

[Boro]

sorry isnt going to cut it.

gimme all yer money

[equipe]

sorry isnt going to cut it.

gimme all yer money

How about a half eaten bag of peanuts and a Fanta. 'Cause I don't have too much more then that. ;)

[Boro]

hmm.....

what flavor of fanta? because if its not orange, you can forget it.... and it will only be a matter of time before we annex canada.

[equipe]

hmm.....

what flavor of fanta? because if its not orange, you can forget it.... and it will only be a matter of time before we annex canada.

Well it's some weird Asian White Grape/Milk Fanta that I was given as a sample and has been in my fridge for a few weeks. It's yours if you want it.

And we will defend ourselfs to the last man with our hockey sticks and chainsaws to prevent you from taking away our fresh water and universal healthcare ;)

[Boro]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Tony Montana]

This "flip-flopping" is just mudd-slinging. If it is such a topic, why not mention all of Bushs flip flops??!

[Tony Montana]

Hahahahaha.
I just loved the way he kept repeating that we went to war without any strong alliances.
*cough*England, Japan, Poland, Australia, Bulgaria*cough*
Keep digging your own grave Kerry with the world's foreign leaders.

Bulgaria, Australia, Poland = strong alliences??? Do you know what their soldiers are doing there, and the most important part: how many of them??

Im getting headaches when reading such brainwashed postings of yours. Inform yourself before refering to such BS you got served by any politician.

[equipe]

Now Poland is even considering removing its troops... And if Bush considers them the 3 part of the 'coalition' ouch! No offence to Poland or anything, but they aren't eactly known as being a world power.

Oh and Japan is not allowed to have an offensive military as stated in their constitution. So puting them in the colalition is total garbage.

[Frizzo the Clown]

hmm.....

what flavor of fanta? because if its not orange, you can forget it.... and it will only be a matter of time before we annex canada.
We will call it, "Operation Leaf Blower"

[Tony Montana]

Bad thing is that most people believe what they want... and not whats true.

[Phaedra]

Well on the matter of those alliances, as an Australian it gives me great shame to announce that we have just re-elected the conservative Howard government for another term. May the empire of sanctimonious deceit and conceit march valiantly on. Frankly I now think we deserve everything we get. May greater and more far-sighted consideration prevail in November.

[The Raven]

This "flip-flopping" is just mudd-slinging. If it is such a topic, why not mention all of Bushs flip flops??!

Bushs flip-flops have been pointed out, however, he does not "flip-flop" on every single thing like Kerry does.

Oh and BTW, Kerry said in the first debate that Bush should have supplied US troops with top off the line body armor and ammunition (which he did) and how dare he not give our troops the necessary equipment to win this war (which he said was the wrong war, wrong place, and wrong time).

Now tell me, how the hell does he [Kerry] have the right to say such a f***ing lie, when he voted against giving our troops these things in the first place!

[Oj]

Kerry has actually clarified this a few times. He did vote for the $67 billion to supply said equipment, but did not vote for the $20 supplemental for reconstruction, which he felt would be spent unwisely. Kerry calls it the wrong war... because of the many problems he has with the way in which it began.

[Tony Montana]

Its just something people repeat because they like it without actually informing themselves. "He is flip flopping!" is only thing Bush admin has in their hands in order to hurt Kerrys reputation, and to keep the minds of Bush himself and his mistakes.

Another funny thing is that bulge and the talk going on about little help Bush got during the debate. If thats true, would people reconsider their opinion of Bush?

[Doomsday]

Here, I'll solve all your voting woes for you......

http://www.blackfive.net/main/images/bush_20041.jpg

[Boro]

kerry cant catch a ball! oh noes!






http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/59.gifhttp://media.ign.com/boardfaces/57.gif boro http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/57.gif http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/59.gif

[Oj]

More on Kerry's football skillz (http://people.wm.edu/~bmjord/kerryfootball.htm).

I like the guy, but these are some pretty funny pictures.

[Boro]

lol, poor little kid
http://people.wm.edu/~bmjord/pictures/Kerry6.jpg


http://people.wm.edu/~bmjord/pictures/Kerry7.jpg

http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/59.gifhttp://media.ign.com/boardfaces/57.gif boro http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/57.gif http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/59.gif

[equipe]

Let's see Bush try and play hockey. Kerry would skate circles around him.

[stonefaced_1]

I also find it funny that Kerry was in Green Bay giving a speech at Lambeau Field, and he said "It's great to be here at legendary LAMBERT field." I wouldn't vote for him just for that.

[Boro]

so that is why the packers are doing bad this year... kerry has set a curse on them...

[stonefaced_1]

The only curse that the packers have is the one of having Sherman as their head coach.

[Tony Montana]

Another funny thing...

During the Cheney/Edwards debate, Cheney said:

"Now, in my capacity as vice president, I am the president of Senate, the presiding officer. I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session. The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight,"

Actually, they have not only met 3 times before, Cheney also sat next to Edwards once!!!

On Feb. 1, 2001, the vice president thanked Edwards by name at a Senate prayer breakfast and sat beside him during the event.

On April 8, 2001, Cheney and Edwards shook hands when they met off-camera during a taping of NBC's "Meet the Press," moderator Tim Russert said Wednesday on "Today."

On Jan. 8, 2003, the two met when the first-term North Carolina senator accompanied Elizabeth Dole to her swearing-in by Cheney as a North Carolina senator, Edwards aides also said.

Another thing that is bugging me is that bulge on Bushs back. No way could it come from his suit or shirt. But it would explain his sudden boost in rhetoric.

www.isbushwired.com

if you want to take a look.

And the last thing... admin usually scares people by telling them that democrats and Kerry want to raise the taxes for lower mid-class etc...

Here is the truth: he will raise taxes for people who earn more than 200 000 per year, not for people under that line. Much better than current president who is stuffing more money into already wealthy pockets. Kerry is going to pay higher taxes himself due to his tax regulation.

[Boiiinng]

Nice little email I got the other day.


I'M GEORGE BUSH AND I APPROVED THIS MESSAGE...

PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004


EXPERIENCE AND EDUCATION

Law Enforcement:
I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the influence of alcohol. I pleaded guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available.

Military:
I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.

College:
I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I was
a cheerleader.


PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:

I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.

I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money.

With the help of my father and our friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.


ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:

I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America.

I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in borrowed money.

I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history.

With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.


ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with
a criminal record.

I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of *over one billion dollars per week*.

I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury.

I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history.

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S. stock market.

In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.

I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.

I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by a U.S. President.

I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations.

One of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron.

My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election decision.

I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.

I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than
any President in U.S. history.

I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.

I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S. history.

I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.

I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.

I refused to allow inspector's access to U.S. "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.

I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).

I set the record for fewest numbers of press conferences of any President since the advent of television.

I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year period. After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history.

I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.

I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protests against any person in the history of mankind.

I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, preemptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community. I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families -- in wartime.

In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq and then blamed the lies on our British friends.

I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans
(71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.

I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD.

I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden to justice.

During the Iraq War and Occupation thousands of American troops were injured and killed. I did not have the time to attend any of the funerals for our fallen soldiers but I did have the time to attend more than 43 fundraising events of the Republican party.

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view.

All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

[Tony Montana]

But hey, it all doesnt matter because Ive heard Kerry is a flip-flopper. ;)

[Doomsday]

The thing that pisses me off most about Kerry is more of a personal reason. I'm a practicing Catholic, and you'd think "Hey, Kerry is Catholic, why wouldn't Doomsday vote for him?" Well Kerry "claims" he's Catholic, but all of his stances on domestic issues such as abortion, homosexuality, the death penalty, etc goes completely AGAINST the teachings of the Catholic church. In reality, Kerry is no more Catholic than I am pitbull (for the record, I am not a pitbull). Just something that would make you angry if you get where I'm coming from.

[Boiiinng]

The thing that pisses me off most about Kerry is more of a personal reason. I'm a practicing Catholic, and you'd think "Hey, Kerry is Catholic, why wouldn't Doomsday vote for him?" Well Kerry "claims" he's Catholic, but all of his stances on domestic issues such as abortion, homosexuality, the death penalty, etc goes completely AGAINST the teachings of the Catholic church. In reality, Kerry is no more Catholic than I am pitbull (for the record, I am not a pitbull). Just something that would make you angry if you get where I'm coming from.

Kerry is against abortion and same-sex marriage, however he doesn't think that the federal government should be legislating that stuff.

[CapricornDevil]

EXPERIENCE AND EDUCATION

Law Enforcement:
I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the influence of alcohol. I pleaded guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available. Which was nearly 30 years ago. Apparently Democrats don't believe in granting second chances. Oh wait, yes they do. Afterall, they forgave Clinton for committing purgery. Which, by the way, is a higher crime than a DUI

. . . .

PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:

I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.Which, apparently, NO OTHER politician has ever done


ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:

I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history.Because previous governors were too "sympathetic" to kill psychopathic murderers

With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.*Cough* Electoral College *Cough*

. . . .

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with
a criminal record.Once again with the second chance issue

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.And how is this Bush's fault?

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period. See Above

I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S. stock market.Apparently the Great Depression and Black Tuesday don't ring any bells with the Democrats

I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.Because only Democrats are allowed to be rich. Look at Kerry. He married someone whose wealth is estimated in the BILLIONS

I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by a U.S. President.And your point is???

I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations.See Above

One of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron.Because, as we all know, you ARE responsible for every action in your friends' lives

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.In simple dollar value, yes that is true. However, when adjusted for cost of living and inflation, it is still much less than the gas prices seen in the late seventies under Carter

I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. ONCE AGAIN with second chances

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than
any President in U.S. history.See Above

I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.Do Democrats think Homeland Security isn't important???

I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.I for one wouldn't want my country's policies and actions to be judged by the same member nations who voiced their support for the U.S. and then withdrew it when the time came for action.

I set the record for fewest numbers of press conferences of any President since the advent of television.And what is the significance of this?

I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.I would LOVE to see the proof on this one. Were all 7 billion people on this planet polled to find out?

I was the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, preemptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community. Yeah...let's just SANCTION Iraq until Saddam gives up. That'll work. Oh yeah, it won't. France was still trading weapon material with Iraq even AFTER the UN imposed sanctions

I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans
(71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.Of course...since it is SO likely we are going to bomb the UK to dethrone Queen Elizabeth

I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden to justice.And having YET to do something instantly means that it will NEVER be done

. . . .

[Oj]

The thing that pisses me off most about Kerry is more of a personal reason. I'm a practicing Catholic, and you'd think "Hey, Kerry is Catholic, why wouldn't Doomsday vote for him?" Well Kerry "claims" he's Catholic, but all of his stances on domestic issues such as abortion, homosexuality, the death penalty, etc goes completely AGAINST the teachings of the Catholic church. In reality, Kerry is no more Catholic than I am pitbull (for the record, I am not a pitbull). Just something that would make you angry if you get where I'm coming from.

Ah, but isn't religion supposed to be kept out of politics? You're not voting for a Catholic or a Baptist (I think that's W's denomination, could be wrong) here. Denomination really shouldn't enter into it.

[The Raven]

But hey, it all doesnt matter because Ive heard Kerry is a flip-flopper. ;)

Bush is NOT a great president, but he is better then Kerry.
Bush may have flip-flopped on some thing but the only things Kerry is consistent about is; raising taxes (which will badly hurt the economy) and inconsistency.


On a seprate note, Kerry has also colaberated with the enemy during vietnam: "Kerry's infamous (and unlawful) coddling of Vietnamese
Communists some 35 years ago (see "Aid and comfort to the enemy:
The Kerry Record..." at http://FederalistPatriot.US/alexander/)
was not his last rendezvous with the Reds. After his election
to the Senate in 1984 (as Ted Kennedy's understudy), Kerry spent
years dismissing claims by POW family groups that some Americans
were still being held in Vietnam and Cambodia. And he has, since,
given aid and comfort to plenty of other Red regimes, including
some in this hemisphere."

[simfan]

Check out this hilarious 1 minute video mash-up of Bush's
debate rhetoric:


http://www.simsadler.com

or

http://www.ifilm.com/viralvideo?ifilmid=2651724

or

http://homepage.mac.com/simsadler1/iMovieTheater2.html

feel free to link to or post on your site.

[equipe]

Wait a minute. You mean that Kerry has acctualy experianced the horror of combat and doesn't think military action is always the answer!? No way!

If you honestly believe that Kerry is a communist, you have no idea what a communist is.

[Doomsday]

Ah, but isn't religion supposed to be kept out of politics? You're not voting for a Catholic or a Baptist (I think that's W's denomination, could be wrong) here. Denomination really shouldn't enter into it.

It has nothing to do with religion being in politics. It's the fact that he IS Catholic, speaks of being Catholic, tries to appeal to Catholics, and none of his standpoints ARE Catholic, says a lot about his character (or lack thereof).

[Boro]

do people hate communism? or the oligarchy that takes advantage of it?

[The Raven]

Wait a minute. You mean that Kerry has acctualy experianced the horror of combat and doesn't think military action is always the answer!? No way!

If you honestly believe that Kerry is a communist, you have no idea what a communist is.

I did not say Kerry was a communist, and you sir did not read what I said.
Read it again, but this time use somwe commen sense.



In 1996, Kerry accepted a $10,000 campaign contribution in
return for arranging a meeting between Honk Kong business woman
Liu Chaohying and a senior Securities and Exchange official
in order to get Chaohying's company listed on the U.S. Stock
Exchange. Chaohying was a lieutenant colonel in Red China's
People's Liberation Army. That same year, Kerry traveled to Beijing
on a "U.S. trade mission." the 'People's Daily', the official
newspaper of the Communist Party of China, has endorsed Kerry's
presidential bid. Prehaps Kerry is not a communist, but hes got them
on his side.

[equipe]

I did not say Kerry was a communist, and you sir did not read what I said.
Read it again, but this time use somwe commen sense.



In 1996, Kerry accepted a $10,000 campaign contribution in
return for arranging a meeting between Honk Kong business woman
Liu Chaohying and a senior Securities and Exchange official
in order to get Chaohying's company listed on the U.S. Stock
Exchange. Chaohying was a lieutenant colonel in Red China's
People's Liberation Army. That same year, Kerry traveled to Beijing
on a "U.S. trade mission." the 'People's Daily', the official
newspaper of the Communist Party of China, has endorsed Kerry's
presidential bid. Prehaps Kerry is not a communist, but hes got them
on his side.

I'm still trying to figure out what is so bad about taking a legal campaign contribution, from a country that is not the enemy, and at the time was given favored nation trading status. And what... communists aren't allowed to have an opinion on who they'd like to have running the country they do the most business with?

Now George Bush was investigated by the SEC, used Enron jets in his campaign as a gift from his pal Ken Lay, has a VP that ran a company (halliburton) that gives much bigger contributions to the republican party and was doing business with both Iran and Iraq contrary to US law.

Now when your VP, and the man who many people think holds the real power in the administration was manking huge money from Iran and Iraq illegally and making huge political contributions to the republican party, I think there is a definate conflict of interest.

[Cindy Brady]

im voting for kitty carryall!!!!!!!! haha :)

[Oj]

It has nothing to do with religion being in politics. It's the fact that he IS Catholic, speaks of being Catholic, tries to appeal to Catholics, and none of his standpoints ARE Catholic, says a lot about his character (or lack thereof).

I think it does say a lot about his character as a politician. In interpreting the Constitution, plenty of religious doctrines are to be set aside. That he can do this is a testament to his ability to properly govern this nation, in my opinion.

And, though I have heard Kerry make mention of himself as a Catholic, I haven't seen or read anything in which he attempts to appeal to Catholics. When has he done so?

[CapricornDevil]

I am just sick of hearing anything about what religion the candidates follow. I don't care if Kerry is Catholic, Buddhist, Wiccan, or an agnostic. DOES IT MATTER?

I guess it does for those people who can't get themselves to understand and accept that, although predominant, Christianity is NOT the only religion of the American people. Leave religious morality out of the issues and do some thinking about implications and how to get programs started or stopped (depending on the issue).

Although I like Bush, and plan on voting for him, I get annoyed every time he brings up the idea of Christian morality being the guiding principle of this country. The mere idea implies that people of any other faith, or no faith at all, aren't moral people. It is insulting and just plain incorrect.

[Andy_R]

do people hate communism? or the oligarchy that takes advantage of it?

I hate both.

[Tony Montana]

Bush is NOT a great president, but he is better then Kerry.
Bush may have flip-flopped on some thing but the only things Kerry is consistent about is; raising taxes (which will badly hurt the economy) and inconsistency.


On a seprate note, Kerry has also colaberated with the enemy during vietnam: "Kerry's infamous (and unlawful) coddling of Vietnamese
Communists some 35 years ago (see "Aid and comfort to the enemy:
The Kerry Record..." at http://FederalistPatriot.US/alexander/)
was not his last rendezvous with the Reds. After his election
to the Senate in 1984 (as Ted Kennedy's understudy), Kerry spent
years dismissing claims by POW family groups that some Americans
were still being held in Vietnam and Cambodia. And he has, since,
given aid and comfort to plenty of other Red regimes, including
some in this hemisphere."

Ive written about the myth about Kerrys tax raise. Think about it and whats actually good for economy, cause you obviously just repeat what you've heard somewhere. If people have more money they could consume more which is why people with lower income (under 200 000 per year... well thats not so low, isnt it??!) will not suffer under tax raise of any kind!! Its much better than current system of stuffing the money into already rich pockets.

The second part is really dumb, sorry. You obviously have no idea of communism and current global policy. Bush had meetings with Schroeder (Germany) ... so he is a traitor!!! How could he shake hands with enemy??!!! Nazi!!!! lol

BTW: Politics and religion should be separated and whoever votes for Bush because "he is religious" must be insane. Government has no right to forbidd someone to marry, doesnt matter which gender people have. Its their life and if they love each other they should marry and live happy with all benefits heterosexual people have. How stuck up and ignorant are people in US for being against it??!! Thats a sin for you? Ok, so dont do it, but stop telling others what to do!!! Or even worse forbid them to be happy!! The thing that always come up is "marriage is sacret institution" ... no its not! Chris Rock put it best "in a country where people watch "Bachelor", "Bachelorette","Who will marry a midget" etc marriage is nothing sacret anymore!! Damn, even Michael Jackson got married, whats sacred about that??!! Gay people have the right to be as miserable as anyone else!"...

[Tony Montana]

And I still dont see anyone questioning Bushs wire-discussion... it would freak me out if I would find out that my president is not able to think for himself. And dont come up with "photoshop" etc... its not only on pictures but also on videos of both debates and no suit makes such bulge when streching your arms to the front, not even the $5 suit.

[Optimus Magnus]

George W Bush, the man, is a fool.

Listen to me people of the United States, my country foolishly re-elected our current Prime Minister, a man of little moral fibre.

I beg you all to vote him out of office.

[Frizzo the Clown]

And I still dont see anyone questioning Bushs wire-discussion... it would freak me out if I would find out that my president is not able to think for himself. And dont come up with "photoshop" etc... its not only on pictures but also on videos of both debates and no suit makes such bulge when streching your arms to the front, not even the $5 suit.
I've thought about that, actually. Even though I certainly wouldn't rule it out, there isn't enough evidence for me personally to say that there was definately a wire or something. It is an interesting idea. I'm not a Bush supporter, and as much as I'd like to call him on something like that, there wasn't quite enough for me to believe it...though I think it would be possible.

[PsychoMike]

And I still dont see anyone questioning Bushs wire-discussion... it would freak me out if I would find out that my president is not able to think for himself. And dont come up with "photoshop" etc... its not only on pictures but also on videos of both debates and no suit makes such bulge when streching your arms to the front, not even the $5 suit.
I think Edwards said it best last night on the Tonight Show...... The buldge on Bushes back was his batteries.... And Kerry should have Bush frisked before the next debate.


But seriously, I do want to know what that was..... I'm not sure if It was a power pack for a earphone or not...... It seems like an odd place to have a power pack.

[ip_guru]

I've thought about that, actually. Even though I certainly wouldn't rule it out, there isn't enough evidence for me personally to say that there was definately a wire or something. It is an interesting idea. I'm not a Bush supporter, and as much as I'd like to call him on something like that, there wasn't quite enough for me to believe it...though I think it would be possible.

I agree. I think this whole thing is as silly as the Repubs saying that Kerry cheated by taking notes from his pocket pen. The rules stated that no one could take anything to the stage, even a pen, and Kerry broke the rules with the pen.

Kerry didn't cheat and use notes, and Bush wasn't wired.

If you want to wire someone, you don't need a massive box like that. Let the ideology go people, it is just making things get really ugly...

[ip_guru]

Ive written about the myth about Kerrys tax raise. Think about it and whats actually good for economy, cause you obviously just repeat what you've heard somewhere. If people have more money they could consume more which is why people with lower income (under 200 000 per year... well thats not so low, isnt it??!) will not suffer under tax raise of any kind!! Its much better than current system of stuffing the money into already rich pockets.

Raising taxes is not a myth. What is a myth is to say that anyone making over 200K must be rich and can afford to pay higher taxes so that the government can give that money to people making less than 200K.

People's material puchases are in direct proportion to their incomes. I know plenty of people over 200K who are living from paycheck to paycheck. I know plenty of business owners who are positive they will have to either close their business, work longer hours, or fire employees in order to survive under the Kerry proposals. Most of those people will elect to work longer hours.

This is hardly news, this is basic economics. To say that people under 200K will not suffer is blind to the economic reality of the country. There is no possible scenario where Kerry can pay for his plans by only taxing the 200K and up group.

Neither candidate has a good economic plan. They both are failing at this task. Bush's plan is far better for the short term economy with both income and job creation. Kerry's plan is far better for the short term economy for program development and expansion. Both are miserable plans long term.

Tony, you have written on this? Please post what you wrote. I have written on this subject as well. I'll post that later this afternoon when I get to my other computer.

[Doomsday]

I love when people say "religion should stay out of government" and "our country isnt' founded on religious principles, because not everyone is religious. Don't impose your morals on me" yadda yadda yadda. I just bust out that one little phrase from the Declaration of Independence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights......."

Oops, I didn't mean to completely shut you down.

The conversation usually ends about there.

[Frizzo the Clown]

I love when people say "religion should stay out of government" and "our country isnt' founded on religious principles, because not everyone is religious. Don't impose your morals on me" yadda yadda yadda. I just bust out that one little phrase from the Declaration of Independence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights......."

Oops, I didn't mean to completely shut you down.

The conversation usually ends about there.
So, what you're saying is then, those that don't follow that particular doctrine have no rights?

Whoops...the conversation was supposed to end there, wasn't it? ;)

[Doomsday]

People just don't the history and principles America was founded on. I remember waaaaaaay back in the day some guy who was picking a religious fight with Jedi Knight (only the old timers will remember this) was saying how "God is never mentioned in the Declaration or Constitution." Well he was right about the Constitution, but I just showed him that part of the Declaration, to which he promptly admitted he was wrong.

When it comes to people taking that approach "our country wasn't founded on this" or whatever, they're just uneducated or don't know what they're talking about.

[Frizzo the Clown]

Okay then. Maybe we were founded on religious principles, but I still don't think they should be a controlling factor in our government. No matter how many historical documents you show off, you're still not gonna change my opinion of that.

[adt100]

Okay then. Maybe we were founded on religious principles, but I still don't think they should be a controlling factor in our government. No matter how many historical documents you show off, you're still not gonna change my opinion of that.

I totally agree with that. I mean, slavery was still rife when the Declaration of Independence was written. I don't believe religion should have any controlling influence in the government of a civilised Western nation.

[PsychoMike]

So what if we were founded by religious people. So it mentions "creator" in the Decleration of Independence, in no way does that mean our laws are or should be baces in christian beliefs. The Decleration of Independence has nothing to do with the laws of the United States of America...... in fact the Decleration of Independence was written before there even was a Untied States of America.

For the present laws of the country the Constitution is all that matters. And if you read it "God" is never mentioned. The founders purposely left God and Religion out of the Constitution because even at that time among the founders there was differing opinions on god and religion.

[Doomsday]

I never put it to say that religion SHOULD have influence over government, I put it to show that people who think that religion had nothing to do with it (raise your hands guys) actually DID have something to do with it. The notion that "Religious morality does not and has never had any influence in American government or its foundation" is preposterous.

[Baadshah]

DEBATE PART THREE

Discuss, what do you think of the last and final debate

[FailedEagle]

I think Bush nailed this one . . . Kerry danced around too many questions without even answering them

[southern]

Kerry is still a moron!
he just can't help but sound like an ass everytime he speaks.

he's contradicts himself on so many things it's pathetic

[Brock Landers]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights......."

The beauty of that line is that it can be interpreted by just about anybody of any religious doctrine living in this country.

[southern]

speaking of religion
kerry quoted scripture to talk about something (someone remind me what it was please) but doesn't bother to quote the part where it says that it's wrong to be gay and wrong to kill (abortion)

[equipe]

It wan't a kncckout blow, but I feel Kerry won this round without question. Bush didn't seem focused and had a hard time stringing together rebuttals, even though Kerry's arguments were open to attack. He responded too many times with the old 'he's a liberal' routine. Also Bush seemed tired to me, he didn't have his usual Texas gusto that is the foundation of his politics.

Bush had Kerry on social security, a bit surprising to me.
Kerry owned Bush on gun control.
Kerry has a slight edge on Health Care (if he can pay for it)
Kerry again edged Bush on illegal immigration when Bush said the borders are more secure (oops)
Both danced around Gay marriage issues on all sides with the same old rhetoric.

I'll add more when I read the transcripts.

[equipe]

speaking of religion
kerry quoted scripture to talk about something (someone remind me what it was please) but doesn't bother to quote the part where it says that it's wrong to be gay and wrong to kill (abortion)

Don't forget the bible also says it Ok to sell your daughter into slavery and kill someone who works on the sabbath.

[Oj]

People just don't the history and principles America was founded on. I remember waaaaaaay back in the day some guy who was picking a religious fight with Jedi Knight (only the old timers will remember this) was saying how "God is never mentioned in the Declaration or Constitution." Well he was right about the Constitution, but I just showed him that part of the Declaration, to which he promptly admitted he was wrong.

When it comes to people taking that approach "our country wasn't founded on this" or whatever, they're just uneducated or don't know what they're talking about.

Who's to say those docrines belong strictly to religion. Emile Durkheim, the first real sociologist, proposed the idea that religion is merely our response to the pressures of society. Think about it in the sense of a primitive tribe. Social pressures were a major part of their lives, but they had no way to explain those pressures. They had yet to gain the reflexive capabilities that were unknown to man until recently (on the timeline of human history, that is). The logical assumption would be that a greater power was in fact imposing these morals and social pressures on society. So then, religion could possibly be the end result of a system of morals imposed by society. Thus, from an atheist's standpoint, so called "religious principles" are rooted in the simple morals created by society, not by a greater being. Assuming then that no Creator exists, all of our morals are merely created by society, and explained for by a supreme being. The religious morals this country is based on may very well be simple societal morals attributed to a false god.

But there really is no way to prove either side of it :D .

[Oj]

speaking of religion
kerry quoted scripture to talk about something (someone remind me what it was please) but doesn't bother to quote the part where it says that it's wrong to be gay and wrong to kill (abortion)

I wasn't able to watch the debates, but it sort of irks me that Kerry quoted Scripture. I had hoped he'd leave that to Bush.

[FailedEagle]

Kerry quoted the 2nd chapter of James referring to Faith without Works being dead. Whatever :rolleyes:

[Oj]

I wasn't able to watch the debates, but it sort of irks me that Kerry quoted Scripture. I had hoped he'd leave that to Bush.

I take that back. I just saw a replay of it, and in its context, I have no problem with it.

[equipe]

I was just reading news articles about potential voter registration fraud going on. I really hope this isn't going on, or I may have lost my faith in man kind yet again.

[Frizzo the Clown]

speaking of religion
kerry quoted scripture to talk about something (someone remind me what it was please) but doesn't bother to quote the part where it says that it's wrong to be gay and wrong to kill (abortion)
Could that be because its not wrong to be gay or have an abortion?

[Tony Montana]

Kerry got the last one without any question.

People who dont like Kerry (because they are down with the gang, its cool not to like any "damn lefty liberal" etc...) usually speak about him contradicting himself but cant point at one single thing!! At the same time president of US cant even speak right, makes a ton of mistakes during speaches etc and all they say is: he is a human, and they make mistakes... wtf?? If the guy is in charge of my country he should be the best one we can get, and it also means that he shouldnt make any mistakes!!

Deficit, war, lies, abusement of religion, people without health care or education etc... and if my president would have done only one of them he would have been impeached ASAP!

[southern]

Could that be because its not wrong to be gay or have an abortion?
i could care less if someones gay
but if he's going to use the Bible for one thing he should read some more to see that he's contradicting himself...AGAIN

but cant point at one single thing!!
see quote

[Tony Montana]

Why the hell is he contradicting himself when not reading the part he doesnt like/doesnt agree with??!! Thats exactly the opposite of contradicting. Look at the dictionary and find out what "contradicting" actually means.

[FailedEagle]

Could that be because its not wrong to be gay or have an abortion?



Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Romans 1:26-27
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


I'm pretty sure it discusses it with the destruction of Soddam and Gamorah too, but I'd have to do some research.

[Tony Montana]

Eagle, Frizzo didnt ment it like that, but that Kerry didnt mentioned that part because its not wrong to be gay of have an abortion.

I still dont get why people are against gay marriage. Can ANYONE explain to me why gay people should not marry those ones they love and please explain me why do you think that you have the right to forbid that?!

[southern]

didn't read my sig apparently
and so killing is good in your book too cause he didn't "read the part he didn't like"

and last night
paraphrase "jobs have declined under Bush" then a few minutes later "why can't we import drugs from Canada" which means lets take away the business from american companies........contradiction

and something not doing with kerry contradicting himself all the time
i really don't want him to raise taxes for everything he wants.....i'd like to be able to keep some of my money and i know my mom needs to keep the money she makes.

[southern]

Eagle, Frizzo didnt ment it like that, but that Kerry didnt mentioned that part because its not wrong to be gay of have an abortion.
it IS wrong in the Bible.
he quoted from the Bible which means he believes in it but only the parts that help his campaigne

[Tony Montana]

Who tells you that you are going to lose money if Kerry wins? Bush? As far as Im informed, Kerry is about helping mid- and lower class while Bush is stuffing money into already uber-rich pockets of upper class. Jobs have declined under Bush, thats the point, and drugs importing is usual in Europe and thats why they are cheap and thats what people with less money really need.

About your sig:

The whole parlament voted that way because they have believed what Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Rice/Ashcroft/Powell told them. They have presented a lie, false intel etc and members of parlaments only mistake is that they have believed in their president!
After finding out what we already know, that it was all false, he made a right decission and admited that it was wrong, and wanted to make it RIGHT! Its much better than holding on to the mistake and not wanted to admit the mistake, like a child.

Contradiction has nothing to do with the case you mentioned (Kerry quoting) because it was not the point, he didnt change his mind, he actually left out what he thought was false (gay marriage/no abortion right) or could be interpreted like that. If I quote a line from some book, do I have to quote the whole book so I dont contradict myself? He refered to his quote, not the rest and in that context it doesnt matter at all.

[Tony Montana]

it IS wrong in the Bible.
he quoted from the Bible which means he believes in it but only the parts that help his campaigne

Bible is an old book with many parts which are not up to date anymore!! There is a thing called progress and not holding to EVERY line written in that book!

[Frizzo the Clown]

What irked me is when Bush was asked "what do you tell an American that has lost his job to outsourcing?" And what does he say? He brings up education. Don't get me wrong, a good education is a very positive thing, but if you're an adult, have a family to raise, and have just lost your job due to lay offs, outsourcing, etc, putting you in school isn't going to help. Not everyone wants to get an education. Higher education isn't the right path for everyone. Who is going to support that man or that woman's family while they're going to school? Education is good...but its not the answer to everything.

[Frizzo the Clown]

it IS wrong in the Bible.
he quoted from the Bible which means he believes in it but only the parts that help his campaigne
I hate to break the news to you, but every candidate that is even remotely religious is guilty of that same thing. Its not a Kerry/Bush thing. Its the way it is, all across the board. Even everyday citizens will only use to their advantage the parts of the bible that benefit them, or their point of view, and "forget" about those that would contradict them. Its just the way it is.

[equipe]

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Romans 1:26-27
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


I'm pretty sure it discusses it with the destruction of Soddam and Gamorah too, but I'd have to do some research.


"Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ...." Ephesians 6:5

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. Exodus 22:19

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.
Jesus speaking in a parable Luke 19:27

Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives...
Romans 7:2

Likewise, you wives, be submissive to your husbands...
Peter 3:1

And my favorite:

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
Exodus 21:7-11

So if you take part of the bible literally, why don't you live the rest of it. Slavery, Oppression of women, Rape, Murder... All condoned in the Bible. I even found incest in there. gross!

[Tony Montana]

I guess that was a nice thing to say huh... gotta kill the new wire guy too...

[Frizzo the Clown]

So....essentially, if you're not Christian in American society, there is no way your views could possibly be right or respected? I always knew that, actually. I just wish someone would admit it.

[FailedEagle]

Tony, I'm done discussing this with someone who thinks that the Bible is outdated.

[Frizzo the Clown]

But it is outdated. No doubt you're for the amendment banning gay marriage. Why? Because the bible says its wrong. The bible is 2000 years old. So instead of rethinking what is said in that, you want to change a considerably more recent document, the Constitution, which is only 200 odd years old. I guess the Constitution is outdated, but the Bible isn't? I'd like to get a look at the calendar you're using.

[FailedEagle]

So....essentially, if you're not Christian in American society, there is no way your views could possibly be right or respected? I always knew that, actually. I just wish someone would admit it.

That was how this country was founded . . . I know that gets in the way of some people, but regardless, This country was founded on Christian Principles.

[Frizzo the Clown]

That was how this country was founded . . . I know that gets in the way of some people, but regardless, This country was founded on Christian Principles.
So what? So I don't have a right to my opinion, or a right to be an American because I don't believe in the same religious dogma as you? Sure, thats not what you said...but it is what the statement implies.

[Tony Montana]

And now there are not only christians living in USA so why should it be considered?? Shouldnt all have the same rights or are such rights reserved only for christians??! Dont you see its rediculous?! Equipe stated some parts of the bible which are definetely outdated, just look up!

This blind following is really freaky.

[FailedEagle]

But it is outdated. No doubt you're for the amendment banning gay marriage. Why? Because the bible says its wrong. The bible is 2000 years old. So instead of rethinking what is said in that, you want to change a considerably more recent document, the Constitution, which is only 200 odd years old. I guess the Constitution is outdated, but the Bible isn't? I'd like to get a look at the calendar you're using.

No doubt you're against banning gay marriage. Yes I am for the amendment, for many different reasons.

1. Marriage was set up based on Christian Fundamentals, It is a sacred union between a man, a woman, and God. That's what it is set up for.

2. Since homosexuality is an abomination to God, to ask for marriage between two men and God doesn't make since. I just don't think that he would condone it.

3. Guys and Girls would start getting married just to get the tax breaks.

[Tony Montana]

1. wrong

2. your god, not others

3. stupid asumption.

[southern]

Tony, I'm done discussing this with someone who thinks that the Bible is outdated.
that's the thing. he thinks it is but obviously his candidate doesn't
kerry should've never said any scripture....keep it a serparation of state and church.
and before someone shoots of his mouth.....i don't think Bush should say gay couples can't marry.

bill of rights is outdated too.....so should we stop following it too?

[FailedEagle]

So what? So I don't have a right to my opinion, or a right to be an American because I don't believe in the same religious dogma as you? Sure, thats not what you said...but it is what the statement implies.

I agree that is not what I said, but It's foolish to think that we should just ignore the foundation of which this country stands. Everyone does have the right to believe whatever they wish. But you have to accept that just as much as Christians, Muslims, and those that worship the pink unicorns.

The majority of America consider themselves Christian. I don't know the exact percentage.

Next thing I know you'll be telling us that religion shouldn't be allowed in public schools.

[Tony Montana]

One simple question:

What harm does gay marriage do to you?

[FailedEagle]

And now there are not only christians living in USA so why should it be considered?? Shouldnt all have the same rights or are such rights reserved only for christians??! Dont you see its rediculous?! Equipe stated some parts of the bible which are definetely outdated, just look up!

This blind following is really freaky.

Equipe?

Blind Following?

Talking jibberish. Perhaps you should elaborate.

[Tony Montana]

that's the thing. he thinks it is but obviously his candidate doesn't
kerry should've never said any scripture....keep it a serparation of state and church.
and before someone shoots of his mouth.....i don't think Bush should say gay couples can't marry.

bill of rights is outdated too.....so should we stop following it too?

Please, do you have any proof that God exists? Politicians use scripture for their cause, Bush does it too. They have to use it in US because so many people are brain washed religiously so thats the only way to get their votes.

[FailedEagle]

1. wrong

2. your god, not others

3. stupid asumption.


1. You're being ignorant with no basis. Look up Marriage origins. Or, simply, check the Bible. It's in there too, oh wait, It's outdated.

2. There is only one God, he is everyone's.

3. No it's not, I know, because I've had this discussion before.

[Tony Montana]

Equipe?

Blind Following?

Talking jibberish. Perhaps you should elaborate.

And you should start reading the postings of other people. Look up at the beginning of this page, guy named Equipe posted some bible parts which are definetly outdated.

Blind followers are people who believe every sentence in bible without any usage of common sense or own brain.

[FailedEagle]

One simple question:

What harm does gay marriage do to you?

Then I have to start seeing it, and hearing about it. I'd rather abstain from these things.

Also, Eventually, everyone would be gay and then no children would be born. It's a proven fact.

[Tony Montana]

1. You're being ignorant with no basis. Look up Marriage origins. Or, simply, check the Bible. It's in there too, oh wait, It's outdated.

2. There is only one God, he is everyone's.

3. No it's not, I know, because I've had this discussion before.

1. State marriage has nothing to do with church marriage. sorry

2. Once again, its YOUR god and thats what YOU believe, so stop being ignorant and telling other people whats right or wrong.

3. People marry nowdays too for tax brakes or green card. There will always be black sheep around, does that means that normal people are not allowed to be happy?

[FailedEagle]

Please, do you have any proof that God exists? Politicians use scripture for their cause, Bush does it too. They have to use it in US because so many people are brain washed religiously so thats the only way to get their votes.

I feel for you. I really do. You already know that no matter what we say here, you won't agree with you. God could, (as I read somewhere else) come down, get in your face and say, "Look I'm real, believe in me." and you'd think "Woah, what was in my coffee this morning?"

[Tony Montana]

Then I have to start seeing it, and hearing about it. I'd rather abstain from these things.

Also, Eventually, everyone would be gay and then no children would be born. It's a proven fact.

Sorry, but this is really ... lol...

You wont see them ****ing, you dont have to do it and for your information, they have to see you and hear you too. Gay people are around and nothing will change, you are going to see them every day, but this time married, and you wont even notice it because you dont want to talk to them (crazy and intolerant), so nothing changes for you.

Everyone would be gay??!! Omg... thats a joke, admit it!!

[FailedEagle]

And you should start reading the postings of other people. Look up at the beginning of this page, guy named Equipe posted some bible parts which are definetly outdated.

Blind followers are people who believe every sentence in bible without any usage of common sense or own brain.

Most of those are completly taken out of context. Yes, It's easy to take one section and make it say what you want it to say, however if you look at the whole, It is usually shunning those things.

[Tony Montana]

I feel for you. I really do. You already know that no matter what we say here, you won't agree with you. God could, (as I read somewhere else) come down, get in your face and say, "Look I'm real, believe in me." and you'd think "Woah, what was in my coffee this morning?"

Man, start using your brain and not some 2000 years old manual.

[FailedEagle]

Man, start using your brain and not some 2000 years old manual.

That shows your ignorance. At least I have something solid to build my beliefs on. You are just telling me that it's not what you believe without showing me anything.

[Tony Montana]

What Im showing you is what you are preaching: tolerance and love for the next one!

And I dont need any book or preacher for that, I like people around me and I acknowledge that they have the same rights as I do and that I cant forbid them anything as long as they dont harm anyone. I wish for people to be happy and live happy. You obviously dont.

PS: Solid? A book.

[Frizzo the Clown]

I agree that is not what I said, but It's foolish to think that we should just ignore the foundation of which this country stands. Everyone does have the right to believe whatever they wish. But you have to accept that just as much as Christians, Muslims, and those that worship the pink unicorns.

The majority of America consider themselves Christian. I don't know the exact percentage.

Next thing I know you'll be telling us that religion shouldn't be allowed in public schools.Would you feel that way about religion in school if it wasn't your religion that was being was being taught?

[equipe]

Failed Eagle answer me this... Is Slavery wrong? because it is cleary condoned in the Bible. Should women be oppressed? That too is condoned in the bible. How about murder and rape. There are instances of those too being condoned in the bible.

I will assume that you will say the slavery is wrong. so maybe the Bible got it wrong. Maybe the bible gets things wrong from time to time. Maybe the bible was written by men, hundreds of years after the death of christ, oh that it was. Maybe the bible is stuck in the past?

[FailedEagle]

Would you feel that way about religion in school if it wasn't your religion that was being was being taught?
yup

[Tony Montana]

Equipe, you are going to burn in hell!!!!!!!!!!!

PS: Ask Frizzo to reserve a nice place next to him.

[PsychoMike]

Then I have to start seeing it, and hearing about it. I'd rather abstain from these things.

Also, Eventually, everyone would be gay and then no children would be born. It's a proven fact.
:lol: :funny: :lol:

This has got to be the funniest thing I have read all day. what you are saying is that if we allow gay marrige then everyone will be guy. The only thing that keeps people from being gay is that the cannot marry. You have alot to learn.

Where do you get the "proof" for you ridiculous claim anyway?
Oh wait I forgot you are from 128 years in the future you ave already seen it happen.

[equipe]

I've reserved myself that I'm going to hell. I'll see you guys there. I'll bring the beer ;)

[Frizzo the Clown]

yup
I doubt that. I really do. Because of your fanatacism, I bet if one of your kids went to school and came home telling you about how his or her teacher taught them everything there was to know about Judaism, and refused to even touch on the subject of Christianity, you'd be uspet. And I wouldn't blame you. Now, what if that same child went to school and was taught that there wasn't a god? If their teacher was an athiest, and was imposing those views on the child? How would you feel then?

[Frizzo the Clown]

Equipe, you are going to burn in hell!!!!!!!!!!!

PS: Ask Frizzo to reserve a nice place next to him.
I've got a box seat with an open bar. Sweet. :D

[Tony Montana]

Eagle is one of a few religious US fanatics Ive met online already, always telling the same "bible says its wrong, so it must be wrong!" stupidity and not even once using own brain or *dadadada*....: actually do what they preach!! Like loving other people, showing tolerance, being nice to people etc...
Christian fanatics in US are one of the worse hatemongers Ive ever seen. No problem in comparing them to islamic fanatics...

[FailedEagle]

I doubt that. I really do. Because of your fanatacism, I bet if one of your kids went to school and came home telling you about how his or her teacher taught them everything there was to know about Judaism, and refused to even touch on the subject of Christianity, you'd be uspet. And I wouldn't blame you. Now, what if that same child went to school and was taught that there wasn't a god? If their teacher was an athiest, and was imposing those views on the child? How would you feel then?

Do you think that they should teach Evolution?

[equipe]

Do you think that they should teach Evolution?

errrm. Yeah I do.

[Tony Montana]

Do you think that they should teach Evolution?


Omg, you wanna say that evolution theory is not right, but bible is??!!!

[FailedEagle]

Eagle is one of a few religious US fanatics Ive met online already, always telling the same "bible says its wrong, so it must be wrong!" stupidity and not even once using own brain or *dadadada*....: actually do what they preach!! Like loving other people, showing tolerance, being nice to people etc...
Christian fanatics in US are one of the worse hatemongers Ive ever seen. No problem in comparing them to islamic fanatics...

Oh, I see, so now, Disagreeing with people makes me hate them? Having a debate/arguement means that I hate you. Right.

Do you believe in God Tony?

[Tony Montana]

I believe in me being a good person and threating others right. If there is a god, I dont have anything to hide.

If you disagree with someone its ok, but if you opress them because they have other opinion or life style thats even worse than hate.

[PsychoMike]

Do you think that they should teach Evolution?
uhhhh...... yeah...... they already do.

And they theach it as a Theory not a fact.

[FailedEagle]

I believe in me being a good person and threating others right. If there is a god, I dont have anything to hide.

If you disagree with someone its ok, but if you opress them because they have other opinion or life style thats even worse than hate.

You didn't answer my question.

Do you believe in God?

[Tony Montana]

I dont believe in God as you see it, I dont know if he/she/it exists and I wish he/she/it would exist. Gods existence has nothing to do with me as a person or the way I am. I do things because I think its right thing to do and being nice to people is a good thing to do. Im sure that God would like it much better if someone is a good person by nature, his wisdom and experience than being like that because he ordered it.

[FailedEagle]

I dont believe in God as you see it, I dont know if he/she/it exists and I wish he/she/it would exist. Gods existence has nothing to do with me as a person or the way I am. I do things because I think its right thing to do and being nice to people is a good thing to do. Im sure that God would like it much better if someone is a good person by nature, his wisdom and experience than being like that because he ordered it.

Here's what I'm looking for.

Do you believe in "Your" God? yes/no

[Tony Montana]

Ok, Im going to write it down slowly:

N O based on proof.

Y E S based on hope.

[PsychoMike]

I'm sorry Tony you have just contridicted yourself.... you cannot have it both ways you have to choose one or the other. ;)

[Tony Montana]

Damn... this is like a gameshow!!! Cant I have both Mike? Please call god and try to fix it! Oh wait, Eagle has a faster dial-up to God!!

Seriously, I hope that there is something. I dont care what bible says cause its full of BS, what matters is the core: be a good person and dont do any harm to others! Every religious book has that same core and thats what I stick to.

I keep away from religions because they only separate people as they always have. Church is responcible for more dead people then WW 1 and 2 combined (nazi soldiers were blessed by pope and other vatican guys...). I can be a good person without any manual.

[PsychoMike]

I actually agree with you Tony, being a good person is all that matters. In the end it is the accomplishment of your life that you will be remembered by.

All I was doing was predicting what Egale was going to say.

[FailedEagle]

I actually agree with you Tony, being a good person is all that matters. In the end it is the accomplishment of your life that you will be remembered by.

All I was doing was predicting what Egale was going to say.

The only basis of Faith is the Bible. Plain and Simple. That's the source. How can you believe in God without "believing" in the bible?

[PsychoMike]

I never said I belived in god.

[André]

Well, the bible clearly states that all you need is to believe (in God).

That basicly transforms into you dont need to believe in everything that is written. "just because it is written, doesnt make it so".

And the bible, the bible. Who chose what to be written there? Because it sure wasnt the writers. there are 4 (dont know this word either - i'm talking about the 4 first "chapters") in the new testament. But originally there are over 20. What happend to the other? Oh yeah, some dick chose what other should believe, and left out the stuff that would give less power to the church and go against their opinions at that time. Example: Thomas clearly states stuff about women that would go against what they wanted. That was left out. Even though Thomas himself refers to his words as the words of God. He was one of the 12. What made his writing less important? Well, its simple: It would have give less power to the church. Why would i chose to believe in a book that in its form is buildt up on greed and power?

Believe all you want, but i would rather just believe in God, then to believe in something (the bible) that was chosen to be right instead of something else because that was better (in terms of power and their faith)

[Frizzo the Clown]

Do you think that they should teach Evolution?
You didn't answer my question.

[Frizzo the Clown]

The only basis of Faith is the Bible. Plain and Simple. That's the source. How can you believe in God without "believing" in the bible?
The only basis of Faith is believing in God. Not the bible. It is easier for me to believe in the bible however. I can prove the bible exists. I have a copy of it in my own home. That doesn't prove I have faith. I think God would prefer you to believe in Him, and not in some book. And why is the King James Version the most recognized version of the bible? Its been edited all to hell to suit James own particular needs. So, if the bible is always correct, and never fallible, then why was it edited? And why is the edited version the version that is most often used? If you don't read that version, then you don't need to answer, of course.

[FailedEagle]

The only basis of Faith is believing in God. Not the bible. It is easier for me to believe in the bible however. I can prove the bible exists. I have a copy of it in my own home. That doesn't prove I have faith. I think God would prefer you to believe in Him, and not in some book. And why is the King James Version the most recognized version of the bible? Its been edited all to hell to suit James own particular needs. So, if the bible is always correct, and never fallible, then why was it edited? And why is the edited version the version that is most often used? If you don't read that version, then you don't need to answer, of course.

Do you know history? King James Translation was taken from the original hebrew and Latin texts. He had a room of translators all of which had to agree what the original authors were saying. Each one had to translated each individual text and then compare them. Therefore, I believe that is the most accurate translation. It was not "edited to suit James own particular needs."

[FailedEagle]

You didn't answer my question.
I'm sorry

Yes, any belief structure is welcome in school. As so long as it is legal. (satanism and such) I have learned about most religions.

[Doomsday]

Satanism is just as legal as Christianity, only not as accepted. Freedom is the entire reason America was founded, and the freedom to worship freely is one of our primary rights, Bush even said so last night on the debate.

[KeyserLime]

The only basis of Faith is the Bible. Plain and Simple. That's the source. How can you believe in God without "believing" in the bible?

I could not disagree more. I feel that out of my friends and most people in my school, teachers included, i am one of the most faithful people around. Have I read the Bible? Not all of it. Do I think I should follow everything the bible tells me to do? No. I believe in gay rights, the right to choose and I don't necessarily believe in going to church. Is there any doubt in my mind to God's existence. No. I firmly belive that god exists but i don't feel that i need to go to church in order to believe in him anymore than i already do.

As for following the bible as a guide for whats right and whats wrong in today's world, that makes about as much sense as following a medieval medical guide. THE WORLD CHANGES SO WE NEED TO AS WELL.

I'd also like to point out that I think its very ridiculous that many wars and a lot of fighting is done all over religion. Whatever happened to the fifth commandment? George Carlin sums it up quite well in Complaints and Grievances.

[Brock Landers]

No doubt you're against banning gay marriage. Yes I am for the amendment, for many different reasons.

1. Marriage was set up based on Christian Fundamentals, It is a sacred union between a man, a woman, and God. That's what it is set up for.

2. Since homosexuality is an abomination to God, to ask for marriage between two men and God doesn't make since. I just don't think that he would condone it.

3. Guys and Girls would start getting married just to get the tax breaks.

1. Yeah, if you believe in the christian God. "Hey you homosexuals, my god says it's wrong! So....uh.....piss off."

2. How do you know it's a he?

3. Damn them and trying to cheat the system, it's not like hetero sexuals haven't been getting married to "get the tax breaks." Everyone knows it's not about love, but Uncle Sam going easy on you come tax time. Heterosexuals = fine, go ahead. Homosexuals and Lesbians = BOOOOO, YOU SHOULDN'T GET EQUAL TREATMENT.


Now, boys and girls, how much sarcasm can you find in this post?

[equipe]

No doubt you're against banning gay marriage. Yes I am for the amendment, for many different reasons.

1. Marriage was set up based on Christian Fundamentals, It is a sacred union between a man, a woman, and God. That's what it is set up for.


I wish I saw this last night:

Marriage is a PAGAN ritual. It was the people that basically forced the church to start peforming the ritual. It was even a church sacrement until the 13th century. Marriage is a hell of a lot older then Christianity, so what right does the christian church have is deciding who can get married?

[The Raven]

"Ive written about the myth about Kerrys tax raise. Think about it and whats actually good for economy, cause you obviously just repeat what you've heard somewhere. If people have more money they could consume more which is why people with lower income (under 200 000 per year... well thats not so low, isnt it??!) will not suffer under tax raise of any kind!! Its much better than current system of stuffing the money into already rich pockets."

Ragen and Bush sr. both lowered taxes and the economy went way up, now thats 12 years. Clinton comes in, economy at its peak, Clinton raises taxes and nearly 8 years later the economy dies. Bush comes in, economy very poor, its Bushes fault.

"The second part is really dumb, sorry. You obviously have no idea of communism and current global policy. Bush had meetings with Schroeder (Germany) ... so he is a traitor!!! How could he shake hands with enemy??!!! Nazi!!!! lol"

Germany is an ally and Schroeder agreed to help free Iraq. Do your history pal, even in WWII not all germans where nazis, and none now.
Sorry man but your above statment is FUBAR.

[Boro]

the raven's picture:


http://www.comingsoon.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=90

[Frizzo the Clown]

the raven's picture:


http://www.comingsoon.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=90


:rolleyes:

[Boro]

:rolleyes:


indeed


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/boromir-pso/chuklesamused.jpg

[Tony Montana]

Ragen and Bush sr. both lowered taxes and the economy went way up, now thats 12 years. Clinton comes in, economy at its peak, Clinton raises taxes and nearly 8 years later the economy dies. Bush comes in, economy very poor, its Bushes fault.

Economy was at the peak mainly due to internet boom at that time, it had nothing to do with Bush sr. because only thing he did is the same Bush Jr. is doing and thats making higher deficit and ruining the economy. Reagan has nothing to do with both, so keep him out.
Clinton did well, but the economic boost is not only his work as I already stated.
Bush jr. made a huge deficit and single handedly ruined so much. I think you should be ashamed. This "republicans always do good, all bad comes from democrats, liberals and those damn commies!" way of thinking is way too low, sorry. "Anyone who makes up their mind before they hit the topic are ****ing fools!" Chris Rock.



"The second part is really dumb, sorry. You obviously have no idea of communism and current global policy. Bush had meetings with Schroeder (Germany) ... so he is a traitor!!! How could he shake hands with enemy??!!! Nazi!!!! lol"

Germany is an ally and Schroeder agreed to help free Iraq. Do your history pal, even in WWII not all germans where nazis, and none now.
Sorry man but your above statment is FUBAR.

But all chinese/vietnamese love communism???! Its funny when you state such things and then YOU tell someone to do his history... lol

US never been in war with china and vietnam war is loooooooong time ago (while US was the agressor then, dont you forget that!), so what problem do you have with Kerry visiting those countries and accepting donations?

[The Raven]

"Economy was at the peak mainly due to internet boom at that time, it had nothing to do with Bush sr. because only thing he did is the same Bush Jr. is doing and thats making higher deficit and ruining the economy. Reagan has nothing to do with both, so keep him out.
Clinton did well, but the economic boost is not only his work as I already stated.
Bush jr. made a huge deficit and single handedly ruined so much. I think you should be ashamed. This "republicans always do good, all bad comes from democrats, liberals and those damn commies!" way of thinking is way too low, sorry. "Anyone who makes up their mind before they hit the topic are ****ing fools!" Chris Rock."

Clinton did s**t, the deficit that every one claims is Bushs fault was Clintons. Ragen has EVERYTHING to do with the economy booming during the clinton years, and one of those things was lowering taxes.

"This "republicans always do good, all bad comes from democrats, liberals and those damn commies!" way of thinking is way too low, sorry. "Anyone who makes up their mind before they hit the topic are ****ing fools!" Chris Rock."
First of all, I believe bad comes from both of the two parties, and the scary part, is that they both agree on the bad as good. I really don't like Bush, but I don't like Kerry even more.

Here some food for thought:
Man asks Regan, "Why did you leave the democratic party?" Ragen replies "I didn't they left me."
1960s party afilliation test 'democrat' is 1980s 'Repulican',
1960s socialist test is todays 'democrat'.
1960s 'Repulican' is todays Radical right wing activist.

[equipe]

by the way it's Reagan. not regan

[The Raven]

"But all chinese/vietnamese love communism???! Its funny when you state such things and then YOU tell someone to do his history... lol"

Umm....they (the People in charge) do. You know it is funny when I state such things and then I tell you to do your history when what I meant was GO LOOK UP THE WORD COMMUNISM FIRST! Here I’ll help you: "A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people." THAT'S WHAT CHINA IS, THAT'S WHAT N. VIETNAM IS! And here's a helpful tip: if communists what a certain candidate in office, vote against that candidate.

"US never been in war with china and vietnam war is loooooooong time ago (while US was the agressor then, dont you forget that!), so what problem do you have with Kerry visiting those countries and accepting donations?" If communists what a certain candidate in office, vote against that candidate.

[The Raven]

by the way it's Reagan. not regan
:omg: Oh thanks, my bad.

[equipe]

No prob. That's what I'm here for. ;)

[Tony Montana]

"But all chinese/vietnamese love communism???! Its funny when you state such things and then YOU tell someone to do his history... lol"

Umm....they (the People in charge) do. You know it is funny when I state such things and then I tell you to do your history when what I meant was GO LOOK UP THE WORD COMMUNISM FIRST! Here I’ll help you: "A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people." THAT'S WHAT CHINA IS, THAT'S WHAT N. VIETNAM IS! And here's a helpful tip: if communists what a certain candidate in office, vote against that candidate.

"US never been in war with china and vietnam war is loooooooong time ago (while US was the agressor then, dont you forget that!), so what problem do you have with Kerry visiting those countries and accepting donations?" If communists what a certain candidate in office, vote against that candidate.

You are talking to someone who spent 13 years of his life under communism, so I do really know how it is opposed to you who knows what he has heard from some extremly biased sources. People have other system they live after, if country is lead by communistic ideals still doesnt mean that that country is automaticly an ENEMY!! Wake up!!! Cold war is over!!
Bush Sen. has NOTHING to do with the economy boost, but he is responcible for huge deficit he made during his time. But Clinton is a democrat, so he cant do anything good, huh?!
ReAgan, not Regan, didnt do **** that has to do with Clintons watch. It looks like you have been reading "Republican Economy for Dummies", because I dont know where you have such conclusions about US economy you obviously have. Im studying economy and know what Im talking about.

And please, learn to use the "Quote" button.

[The Raven]

"You are talking to someone who spent 13 years of his life under communism, so I do really know how it is opposed to you who knows what he has heard from some extremly biased sources. People have other system they live after, if country is lead by communistic ideals still doesnt mean that that country is automaticly an ENEMY!! Wake up!!! Cold war is over!!"
Ok your right, it doesn't mean they are automaticly an enemy. But you of all people should know how evil communism is, and when Kerry says that he will check with them first before we defend ourselves kinda makes me want to vote for Bush.

"Bush Sen. has NOTHING to do with the economy boost, but he is responcible for huge deficit he made during his time. But Clinton is a democrat, so he cant do anything good, huh?!
ReAgan, not Regan, didnt do **** that has to do with Clintons watch. It looks like you have been reading "Republican Economy for Dummies", because I dont know where you have such conclusions about US economy you obviously have. Im studying economy and know what Im talking about." LOL, obviosly not, but anyway.

Clinton didn't give a f**k about the American people, he gave N. Korea nuclear weapons technology and he had scores of people around him killed because they knew too much about what he was doing, to name a few. I would say Clinton did almost nothing good, and had he been a Republican I would say the same. I'd vote for Kerry over Clinton any day.

[The Raven]

"And please, learn to use the "Quote" button."
Well when I "Quote" somone I'll try and remember that.

[Frizzo the Clown]

Boy, its no wonder people from other countries hate us.

[The Raven]

It's because i'm white isn't it? :nono:
BTW, love the Quote Frizzo

[ip_guru]

Im studying economy and know what Im talking about.


Feel free to post some of your economic data and opinions. Earlier you said you have written on this, and now you say you are studying this and that you know what you are talking about. Post your response in my thread on the economic political lie, I'd love to read your thoughts.

[Tony Montana]

Clinton didn't give a f**k about the American people, he gave N. Korea nuclear weapons technology and he had scores of people around him killed because they knew too much about what he was doing, to name a few. I would say Clinton did almost nothing good, and had he been a Republican I would say the same. I'd vote for Kerry over Clinton any day.

And he is an alien too, I guess.

[Tony Montana]

Feel free to post some of your economic data and opinions. Earlier you said you have written on this, and now you say you are studying this and that you know what you are talking about. Post your response in my thread on the economic political lie, I'd love to read your thoughts.

Ive seen the post IP, I have to sit through it and inform myself on some topics (which I highly recommend to anyone before he starts speaking) before I write about it. My pc is not working anymore, so only internet connection I have is at my university or at my girlfriends place.

[The Raven]

And he is an alien too, I guess.
What kind of f***'n reply is that?

[Frizzo the Clown]

At least he was able to refrain from pointless obscenities, so you at least have to give him that. ;)

[Boro]

you dont know that he was swearing. he could have been saying flan

[Brock Landers]

At least he was able to refrain from pointless obscenities, so you at least have to give him that. ;)

Yeah, I mean what the ****? ****ing pointless obscenities. ;)

[Boro]

i dont see how they are pointless. sometimes vulgarity can be used to add emphasis on certain things.

[Brock Landers]

i dont see how they are pointless. sometimes vulgarity can be used to add emphasis on certain things.

Like swearing.


Wait, what?

[KeyserLime]

hahaha

It's my opinion that if the vice pres can so it, so can i ;)

[Tony Montana]

Great speech to watch here, no mumbo-jumbo.

http://www.mydd.com/files/admin/TimRyan_Medium.mov

[The Raven]

Given the chance, would Saddam
Hussein, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, Osama bin Laden, Kim Jong-Il, Mohammad
Khatami, Moammar al-Ghadafi and Hu Jingtao vote for A) George Bush, or
B) John Kerry? How would Jacques Chirac, Gerhard Schroeder and Kofi
Annan vote? If you answered "B," put a big shiny star by your name.

[Oj]

Sounds like they have better judgement than you, then :P.

What you said really is the most ridiculous thing to say. It just reeks of ridiculousness.

[Frizzo the Clown]

Given the chance, would Saddam
Hussein, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, Osama bin Laden, Kim Jong-Il, Mohammad
Khatami, Moammar al-Ghadafi and Hu Jingtao vote for A) George Bush, or
B) John Kerry? How would Jacques Chirac, Gerhard Schroeder and Kofi
Annan vote? If you answered "B," put a big shiny star by your name.
Given the chance, would I vote for a) George Bush, or b) John Kerry? Oh..wait...I do have the chance. I choose b. Wheres my damn star?

[equipe]

Given the chance, would Saddam
Hussein, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, Osama bin Laden, Kim Jong-Il, Mohammad
Khatami, Moammar al-Ghadafi and Hu Jingtao vote for A) George Bush, or
B) John Kerry? How would Jacques Chirac, Gerhard Schroeder and Kofi
Annan vote? If you answered "B," put a big shiny star by your name.

Why is Hu Jintao on the list...

For the last freackin' time China is not the freackin' enemy!

And acctually I not sure you understand what is going on here. I bet Al-Zarqawi and Bin Laden love having Bush in power. He created the state in which Al-Zarqawi is now active, And Bush seems to have forgotten completely about Bin Laden. As for Kim Jong-il. Having Bush in power seems to do nothing against his grip on power in the DPRK.

[Baadshah]

Did the debates help anyone in making their final decision?

[Brock Landers]

Did the debates help anyone in making their final decision?

Nah. In my opinion everyone has pretty much had their minds made up for months about who they're rooting for.

[todd philip]

http://filmstripinternational.com/

[todd philip]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/poopheadcheese/chen.bmp

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/poopheadcheese/sidious2.jpg

[Oj]

http://filmstripinternational.com/
:D

[todd philip]

http://slambush.net/video/index.html

[Boro]

http://www.channel51.org/

[Oj]

For some reason I don't quite think Metroid Prime 2 fits into this discussion... :P

[Boro]

:(


*thinks up some BS*



on the contrary, i think it does. MP2 is made by retro studios in america, if you buy this game, you will ensure the jobs of the people at retro studios, thereby, helping the economy.