the source, and poor, poor Baadshah

[terarist]

I'm posting this, because i just read a very long and rather pointless thread, that began with an interesting idea, that never got discussed.

The inference in Baadshah's thread "who is the source?" was that neo had yet to meet the source. The rest of the thread basically humiliates the poor fellow by assuming the word "met" meant that neo meets a person.

I'm not going to castigate you all, like you did Baadshah, but I am going to remind you that the word "met" does not presuppose an encounter with a person, but could speak to a range of possibilities inlcuding encounters with inanimate objects, such as "the saxon hordes, upon meeting the castle gates..." blah blah, blah.. So that was mean, and not an accurate point in which to deflate his arguement. (And later on, assumptive language trapped him into defending someone's wrongful presumption)

Secondly, every "program" in the matrix is a code. Every minutiae of the matrix has a corresponding program, each program is sentient. The term "source" is vague, and obliquely thought to be the machine mainframe, but it too, is most probably governed by a program, and the law of averages suggest that it too, would be sentient. And while this "source" may not have an embodied presence, as the oracle told us all, a program that is doing it's job would not necessarily have a physical appearence.

I'm going to second Baadshah, and say that neo hasn't met the source, whatever the source might be.

The architect is not "god". He can't be. "God", in western parlance, suggests an omniscient being, and he most certainly is not. He was surprised by neo being quicker than the others, and he works on probabilities. His pretensions to omniscience come from hindsight and high probabilities. He does not know everything, and he himself makes the distinction of a source, and himself, self-identifying as the "architect" . In fact, he uses presumptory pronouns, such as "I", "my", and such, but refers to the "source" in third person, non-specific ways. Highly suspect, for those trying to collapse both the "source" and "architect" into a single entity.

Neo hasn't met the source, or if he has, it hasn't been shown to us. If the source is sentient, and it does choose a human form, in the inevitable moment when neo will meet it, it will most likely approximate neo's own appearence. I'm saying this, because it follows into the various religious allegories (and by religious, I mean a diversity of religions) being channeled by this film.

Anyhow, I realize that i'm re-opening a thread that was closed, and you can deride me, castigate me, if you will. A moderator can of course close it. But I've read the whole thread through, and I don't feel that anyone actually, and effectively dealt with his points, and that it merely dissolved into namecalling.

[freakyplatypus]

The source is the room where the Architect is (or was in Reloaded)
Neo has reached the source- here's proof, a quote from Enter the Matrix:

Niobe : Then Neo is alive?
Oracle : Yes. He touched the Source and separated his mind from his body. Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours.

[terarist]

I'm not suggesting that he didn't "touch" the source, but rather that the idea that the "source" is the room itself, may in fact be right, but not completely so. I would go so far as to say, yes, Neo has "touched" the source, and it may very well be "in" that room, but that we probably haven't seen it.

But most likely, whatever the source is, wherever the source is, it doesn't need to be in that room, and it doesn't have to be the architect. And I think the implications of the oracle's statement isn't necessarily that he touched the source while in the room with the architect, but just that he touched the source.

I would suggest that in actuality, he touched the source while in the real world, as he raised his hand to "stop" the sentinels, and that his realization immediately before he did so, may have been the actual "touching" part.

[freakyplatypus]

I'm going with the idea that the source is the room.

[Baadshah]

thank you terarist for understanding what i was trying to say. Which was that Neo never reached the source.

[freakyplatypus]

I'll have to disagree and say that he has reached the source....
That's what I think now and that's what I've always thought... They went through the whole power outage thing to get Neo to reach the source- the room is the source- back me up people

[Boiiinng]

Architect: There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the Source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the Matrix, to her and to the end of your species.

If anything, the room where the Architect resides is a place between the mainframe and the Matrix. If the door to the right LEADS to the source, then they are not within the source yet. However, Neo is now the One who has been the closest to the source and returned from it, so that's how I explain his new abilities, he at least was near enough to the source to be able to sense it in the real world and mess with it.

[freakyplatypus]

Ok Boiiinng... I forgot aboutwhat the Architect said- And I now see what the Oracle meant- he "touched" the source... he wasn't there.... meaning he was still very close from it. I do not know if this could explain his abilities though. I don't want to get into that territory since there is no proof of anything.... Posters could go on for days arguing about Neo's new abilities so let's just not go there

[Tardumb]

Yeah, this crap will give you a headache...But Boiiing is right...it's the most obvious thing in the conversatoin between Neo and the Architect and he tells you straight up that the Source is through the right door. Obviously, that room wasn't the Source if it was through the door...

[freakyplatypus]

Yep

[Tardumb]

Thanks for your insight ;)

[freakyplatypus]

Yeah your welcome

[GMaN]

Its cool to read all these really good theories. I agree with this one by Baadshah as well. I never thought of it... all these people posting and brainstorming is awesome, because it makes you understand things from the movie to a higher level.

Good work everyone! lol:applaud:

[Morphius DOH]

One thing is for certain: We'll find out in November if Neo "touched" the Source and how. In the meantime, these discussions are crtainly helping to pass the time.

[Seraph]

Give it up already! Baadshah started the most MORONIC thread in the history of this forum...so, he must suffer now. I believe terarist is now equally stupid for actually sticking up for baadshah.
They must be the same person. There can't be two people that are that dense. By the way terarist, it wasn't just the "met" part. It was the whole problem with the title of the thread: "who" is the source. Comprende? He deserved every damn word that he got. Suck it up and take it like a man. Loser.

[eclipsedman]

Interesting idea terarist has brought up. Maybe by Neo possibly "dieing or going into a coma" after the squiddies atacked that that was the source. Something like he died in the real and went to heaven type of thing "the source".

By the way the only thing I am gonna be loading is by pipe, hey Seraph it might help you ta chill out too:D

[XtRaVa]

omg...rofl

[ambrosia]

I don't really care what the 'Source' is given that the Architect is the biggest honcho in the Matrix. He designed it, created it, controls it along with all the sub programs he devised.... the 'Source' if anything is simply the code he used to create the Matrix world and is by no means sentient. The Source room is probably just filled with that falling green text stuff.

[The Elf King]

Originally posted by ambrosia
The Source room is probably just filled with that falling green text stuff.

Just like the whole of the Matrix? :rolleyes:

[freakyplatypus]

Neo has not yet been to the source guys--- whatever the source may be... since the source is in the right door. Me and Boiiinng decided that yesterday.

[Empusae]

Originally posted by The Elf King
Just like the whole of the Matrix? :rolleyes:

*laughs*

[ambrosia]

I dunno, isn't God meant to be omnipresent? I dunno. I still say Mr 'Admire my skills at annoying you by clicking and flicking my really neat pen around between my fingers' Architect is the Program number one.... ergo.

[terarist]

"God" is meant to be omnipresent, and omniscient, in some religious models. It's the idea that "god" is everywhere and all knowing.
And in same religious/theological models, "god" is also the first of a race, and the creator of a race.
Taking these characteristics in mind, the architect is sorely wanting as a god figure, because I don't think he's supposed to be. He's obviously taking on a god-like likeness, the old man in a white room deal. But I think he proved rather deftly in his conversation with neo that he is arrogant, that he is not omniscient, and certainly not omnipresent. He does not know necessarily how neo will react, and thus he is not omniscient. He can not see everything that happens within the matrix, and thus does not know who will be the anamoly, and thus he is not omnipresent.
And finally, and I think this is the most important point, he is a program, and he is not the first of the programs. He was created, and thus has a creator.
He is not the source, and what the source actually is is unclear. It's thought to be the source code of the matrix. What if that's inaccurate, and the "source" is the source code of every program, period. AI is not a hardware development, it is a software development. As such AI is a program, and one program gave rise to an entire race of programs. Perhaps the source is this.

Arguing semantics is not the point, and the fact is that personification/embodiment is entirely up to the program, such that many programs do have embodiments in the matrix (architect, oracle, keymaster) and as the oracle said, the programs doing their job do not. Arguing about who, or what, when ultimately we are talking about machines is trivial at best, and tertiary to the essential point, since they all essentially have sentience, and thus are all "who's" regardless of whether they are conventionally bodied in your eyes. So Seraph, my dear, if you can't stay on topic, and answer to the points in a manner thats respectable, or even credible, why don't you go find another?

[freakyplatypus]

Terarist you brung up some good points like always--- and we won't know if the source is a who or a what or a when or a where until Revolutions comes out.... (Or Will we even know then?? Hopefully!)

[ambrosia]

Originally posted by terarist
"God" is meant to be omnipresent, and omniscient, in some religious models. It's the idea that "god" is everywhere and all knowing.
And in same religious/theological models, "god" is also the first of a race, and the creator of a race.
Taking these characteristics in mind, the architect is sorely wanting as a god figure, because I don't think he's supposed to be. He's obviously taking on a god-like likeness, the old man in a white room deal. But I think he proved rather deftly in his conversation with neo that he is arrogant, that he is not omniscient, and certainly not omnipresent. He does not know necessarily how neo will react, and thus he is not omniscient. He can not see everything that happens within the matrix, and thus does not know who will be the anamoly, and thus he is not omnipresent.
And finally, and I think this is the most important point, he is a program, and he is not the first of the programs. He was created, and thus has a creator.
He is not the source, and what the source actually is is unclear. It's thought to be the source code of the matrix. What if that's inaccurate, and the "source" is the source code of every program, period. AI is not a hardware development, it is a software development. As such AI is a program, and one program gave rise to an entire race of programs. Perhaps the source is this.


I agree.

[terarist]

thanks.

[Baadshah]

Originally posted by terarist
"God" is meant to be omnipresent, and omniscient, in some religious models. It's the idea that "god" is everywhere and all knowing.
And in same religious/theological models, "god" is also the first of a race, and the creator of a race.
Taking these characteristics in mind, the architect is sorely wanting as a god figure, because I don't think he's supposed to be. He's obviously taking on a god-like likeness, the old man in a white room deal. But I think he proved rather deftly in his conversation with neo that he is arrogant, that he is not omniscient, and certainly not omnipresent. He does not know necessarily how neo will react, and thus he is not omniscient. He can not see everything that happens within the matrix, and thus does not know who will be the anamoly, and thus he is not omnipresent.
And finally, and I think this is the most important point, he is a program, and he is not the first of the programs. He was created, and thus has a creator.
He is not the source, and what the source actually is is unclear. It's thought to be the source code of the matrix. What if that's inaccurate, and the "source" is the source code of every program, period. AI is not a hardware development, it is a software development. As such AI is a program, and one program gave rise to an entire race of programs. Perhaps the source is this.

Arguing semantics is not the point, and the fact is that personification/embodiment is entirely up to the program, such that many programs do have embodiments in the matrix (architect, oracle, keymaster) and as the oracle said, the programs doing their job do not. Arguing about who, or what, when ultimately we are talking about machines is trivial at best, and tertiary to the essential point, since they all essentially have sentience, and thus are all "who's" regardless of whether they are conventionally bodied in your eyes. So Seraph, my dear, if you can't stay on topic, and answer to the points in a manner thats respectable, or even credible, why don't you go find another?
correctly put terarist.

[terarist]

thanks. I hate when people attempt to destroy an arguement on triviality, without ever answering to the points.

[Tardumb]

I have no respect for people like Seraph. Dude, you've made yourself look like an ass and no one is laughing with you..they're laughing at you, just shut up already.

[hpk37067]

Whoever thought that such a cool guy's name would have the personality of a rodent?

[XtRaVa]

none of this will change what we all know baadshah said AND meant, yawn.

[hpk37067]

Where is this guy anyway?

[Tim37ninjageniu]

Neo HAS met the source. Remember when he was talking to Morpheus after they got out and he said the prophecy cant be true because the war isnt over. That implies that he was at the source after all or at least he thought he was at the source.

[hpk37067]

In ETM, the Oracle said that Neo left a part of himself in the Source or something like that.

[freakyplatypus]

Originally posted by freakyplatypus

Niobe : Then Neo is alive?
Oracle : Yes. He touched the Source and separated his mind from his body. Now he lies trapped in a place between your world and ours.
hehe I'll quote myself

[Tim37ninjageniu]

you are freaky

[freakyplatypus]

Yes.

[Fanible]

This is basicly summing up that possibly the whole prophecy actually is true, it's just that Neo never actually reached the source (or the next One, whichever). Yes I know that's being said, but just summing it up.

[terarist]

this feels like semantics... or even semiotics... but either way we'll have fun, fun, fun, till the mod takes the "F" word away!!! ;)

[hpk37067]

Originally posted by Fanible
This is basicly summing up that possibly the whole prophecy actually is true, it's just that Neo never actually reached the source (or the next One, whichever). Yes I know that's being said, but just summing it up.

I thought the prophecy was a hoax formed by the machines to give the humans and the One false hope that leads them to the Source.

[Baadshah]

THREE MONTHS LATER

i guess we can start running this thread again since after seeing the trailer, the machine mainframe most likely be that big orb that Neo was taking to in the beginning

I started a thread called "Who is the Source", and many people were ruining the thread about how I said the "Who" when the source isn't a person. Instead of discussing, they bashed me for posting the thread. They believed the source was just code, but so is Agent Smith and The Artictect. And now we see the hugh orb which could be the machine mainframe (Source) where the path of The One ends like the Oracle said.

So i brought this topic up again, even though the mods closed the thread that I started.

So, who is a noob now

[spiderman_2k]

Originally posted by Baadshah
So, who is a noob now

....You...;)

[Baadshah]

did u get my pm?

[spiderman_2k]

The one about my doomed battle thread..:(

[Baadshah]

ya, and plus there was another pm before hit, i think it was about a certain pic ..............:)

why did they close it:(

[spiderman_2k]

People began talking about...Naughty things...;)
What pissed me off was i didnt even get an explanation from the Mods..They could have at least told me.

[Baadshah]

plus there was a pic where the mods said not to post because it had nips showing, pm me that so i know what they're talking about

[spiderman_2k]

I tried looking for the pic but could'nt find it again..Im sure it didnt have nips in though....Well, the thread is closed now..I did'nt even get an explanation...But its done and gone.

[Baadshah]

oh, i was actually getting to know all those stars that i haven't heard off. PM me those at least

[Baadshah]

ok,yyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

made it too 1000 posts

[dogisburning]

Maybe the source is a space,an area,and the Arcitect's room is just inside the border line or something.I dunno,just a stupid idea.

[Baadshah]

or maybe the source is Persophone, the KISS

[dogisburning]

I thought the kiss was to feel love(what she wants).

[terarist]

personally, the "source" as it's called, would seem to imply, in my mind an "origin" of sorts. A place from which things began. As such, the locus of such a place could be within the matrix, as a matrix was built around it. But I seem to think that it's not.

The door that the Architect implied led to the source, was another door, to another place, in much the same way the door to the architect was another door, to another place. I suspect that the original arguement, that neo has yet to "meet" the source is still teh correct one, and that the source, whatever it may be, may more properly be embodied by the strange baby faced machine-sentinal-composite thing, in the trailer.

as for persephone, she appears to be some sort of emotional vampire, unable to feel her own.

[freakyplatypus]

I have always thought of the source as a place