Who else thought Frodo was gonna die?

[ApolloX]

In FOTR Elrond says "This journey will take his life," and how him and Gandalf were talking about Frodo being stabbed be the Witch King.
Did anyone else without reading the books think Frodo was gonna die at the end of ROTK?

[Nimrandir]

This is a difficult question for those who are fans but have not read the book. Most are not aware that he did indeed die.

[ApolloX]

I know he died but i thought he would die at mount doom. and also when sam says "I dont think there will be a journey home" that seemed like an indication that thaey wouldnt make it back.

[Drizzt240]

I think Peter Jackson did that on purpose to create suspense. The pinnacle of this suspence would be when Frodod is hanging off the edge of Mount Doom and hesitates to grab Sam's hand.

[Alassea]

I did, I must confess :redface: So ApolloX,you are not the only one.
I start reading the books only after I saw ROTK even if I was already a fan. And that scene with Frodo falling really confused me, I was thinking that the end of the ring could be the end of Frodo too.

[kungfuhobbit]

I hadnt read the books till ROTK, but i just couldnt resist finding out what happened! But I dont think you will have been alone in thinking this.

[flukeman]

I started reading the books after I saw TTT, and had finished the trilogy before ROTK came out. But I truly thought Frodo would die in destroying the ring, sacrificing himself. I was surprised to find that he didn't.

You're right Nim, that he did die as a result of his quest, but not in the way people thought he would, in the actual act.

[Darth Barth]

Thats also the main reason I didnt read the books until after FOTR. It wasnt what elrond had said, but the reaction Fodo had to Gimli trying to destroy the ring with his axe that had me running to the book store the next day for the books. I thought for sure that when the ring was destroyed, Frodo would die. Thought he was diggin his own grave I did.

[JBond]

Wouldn't a better question be: "When you were reading the books for the first time, did you think Frodo would die?" In that case, yes I did, I figured he'd go along with the ring at the end.

[neo5595]

This is a difficult question for those who are fans but have not read the book. Most are not aware that he did indeed die.
He did! :omg: Seriously, I havent read the books before and did not know that! So tell me, did he die on Mount Doom or something? How'd it happen?

[Nimrandir]

No, he did not die in the act of destroying the Ring or any other place, but the Quest, "claimed his life." He died in the movie as he died in the book, in his passing over the sea to the undying lands. It is too late for me now to explain it. i have done it several times befor as have others. If you can't wait than ther are some expalinations in the Special Extended Edition Thread. Go back a page or two.

[Necross]

Wouldn't a better question be: "When you were reading the books for the first time, did you think Frodo would die?" In that case, yes I did, I figured he'd go along with the ring at the end.


When I was first reading the books, I thought Frodo dying would have been to obvious, I thought Sam was gonna die for him. Until I read Shelob's Lair, then I thought, HOW CAN FRODO DIE BEFORE THE THIRD BOOK! Must admit that would have been one amazing twist. Everyone in ROTK thinks they are fighting for Frodo when he is already dead and they were truly fighting for Sam. I would have cried everytime they mentioned something like For Frodo, you know what I mean?

[JBond]

Well I didn't think they were going to have Frodo die as a twist in ROTK, but have him die because it was the right way to do it...it's hard to explain what I mean, but I thought it would be obvious he was going to die because it was suppose to be, because he WAS going to die...I'm going to shut up now.

[Nimrandir]

Which would have made Aragorns meaning in the movie true.

The susspense must have been terrible for those fans decades ago after they read TTT, and there was as of yet no ROTK.

[neo5595]

wait. Frodo really died in Shelobs Lair(book 2)?! So was Sam the one who went on to mount doom and destroyed the ring?

[Necross]

wait. Frodo really died in Shelobs Lair(book 2)?! So was Sam the one who went on to mount doom and destroyed the ring?

No he didn't really die in Shelob's Lair, its just in the book they had much more time to draw it out. In the book, Sam takes the ring and marches on a little ways before the orcs show up and announce Frodo is alive so for about a page, your belief is complete shock at Frodo's "death."

[neo5595]

Ok, I think Im starting to get it now. Thanks.

[Nimrandir]

No. It was made out that he was killed by Shelob. Sam only fund out later that he was only unconsious and not dead, He took the Ring himself and was going to Mt. Doom but before he went a few feet when orcs came and he went back and found that Frodo was taken by the orcs and was only sleeping. But, the book ended with the Frodo being alive but imprisioned by the orcs. You really need to read the books, Neo. They are the best works of imaginar fiction of t he twentieth century, IMO The greatest the World has ever seen.

[neo5595]

I'll get around to reading them someday. Everyone else I know has read them. Im just too lazy.

[Catechumen]

It's confusing when people haven't read the books. They explain so much, and give you more insight into the story.

[fantasticfour40]

No I don't think he died. I think he's going to the undying lands to get that stab healed. But, yes i thought Frodo were never make it to Mount Doom. I was in tears all the way.

[Necross]

Well in essence, going to the Undying Lands....is basically dying....its hard to explain...really....you need to read The Silmarrillion as well to get the whole picture.

[Cloud Buster]

Tolkien never said that to pass over the sea was to "die". It's clearly a metaphor for death, but nothing more.

[JBond]

I thought going to the Undying Lands was a metaphor for traveling across the Atlantic to America.

[Necross]

Tolkien never said that to pass over the sea was to "die". It's clearly a metaphor for death, but nothing more.

Well thats what I meant. :D
But when you do die, you go to the Halls of Mandos which are in the Undying Lands. ;)

[fantasticfour40]

So he did die. I think I get it now.

[Necross]

I guess you could say this, going to the Undying lands is basically a metaphor for dying, but the book never really says if Frodo dies when he leaves, you infer it, but just thinking. In the appendices of the book, it says that after Sam's wife dies, a ship comes to take him to the undying lands, I always thought he was going to reunite with Frodo. Am I wrong?

[Boro]

Well thats what I meant. :D
But when you do die, you go to the Halls of Mandos which are in the Undying Lands. ;)

i'm pretty sure that only the elves go to the halls of mandos, and that men (and hobbits, as they did branch off the race of man) dwell among eru after death or something like that.

[Necross]

I think they all go to the halls because Beren was waiting for Luthien there, if you read the Silmarillion, remember. :D
Spoiler from the Silmarillion.

[flukeman]

...In the appendices of the book, it says that after Sam's wife dies, a ship comes to take him to the undying lands, I always thought he was going to reunite with Frodo. Am I wrong?

That's what I like to think Necross.

My understanding is this (and this is just from a couple readings of LOTR and not the Silmarillion) - Frodo sailed to the Undying Lands, where he dwelled until he died - I would assume that even though he and Bilbo are in Valinor, they still die as they are mortals. But just the act of going there isn't dying. Which is why I like to think that he and Sam reunited before they both died.

But I don't like to think about them dying :(

[Necross]

Yeah, I think thats what happens too.

[JBond]

I think they all go to the halls because Beren was waiting for Luthien there, if you read the Silmarillion, remember. :D

OK. I'm assuming you put the spoiler tag up because that a spoiler from the book The Simarillion. But did you ever think how that's going to look to someone who did NOT post that, by that I mean, everyone else? How does anyone know what you're spoiling, and therefore, how would they know if they want to look or not? Because, there's alot of movies and books out there..

[Necross]

I think they all go to the halls because Beren was waiting for Luthien there, if you read the Silmarillion, remember. :D

Spoiler from the book The Silmarillion.

[kungfuhobbit]

I dont think the point of him sailing to the Grey Havens is that he dies, its that he had to give up the one thing he always truly loved - The Shire. In the film at least, thats the price Frodo pays, not death (though book readers know different)

[Necross]

Actually like I said earlier, I don't think Frodo left because he was going to die, I think he left because he would die if he stayed, the Morgul wound wouldn't bother him in the Undying Lands, thats why he left....I firmly believe he reunites with Sam after Sam travels there.

[Twilight]

Well Frodo and Bilbo sailed of to Tol Eressea, an island close to Valinor, and they lived there for a long time so they could forget about their wounds. Living among immortal elves is a tough thing though, so when their time came, Frodo and Bilbo chose death.

[The Prophet]

It's sort of a metaphorical part of the "Hero Cycle" in many stories: at the end of his life King Arthur is wounded and must be taken across the lake to the faery island of Avalon to be healed. (Plus, Neo when he "dies" in Revolutions is taken away on what appears to be a RAFT-like machine; to be healed for a time?...)

Anyway, the first thing is that Frodo and Bilbo don't "instantly die", though it's sort of a metaphorical death.

The Undying Lands (the main continent Valinor, the large island Tol Eressea, etc), aren't a "normal" mortal region: they used to be but they got physically removed from the world during the Second Age. Actually, the magic is from the immortal Elves and angelic Maiar that dwell there. Anyway, the world used to be a flat disk, but in the Second Age Sauron corrupted the Numenoreans into attacking Valinor, and Eru (God) intervened and destroyed them by Changing the World into a sphere. (the good Numenoreans, the Faithful, were led by Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion in an exodus on ships away from Numenor, as Numenor sank beneath the waves during the Change--->An alternative Elvish name for Numenor is supposed to be "Atalante"; draw your own conclusions. Anyway, Elendil and his sons land in Middle-earth, and create the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor.)

Anyway, though before the Change of the World Valinor was a place mortals could sail to, after the Change it is removed from the world.

It's strange, but think of it as that there's a spherical world, and Valinor is now sort of floating above it in 'space'--->NOT that you can SEE it; it's "magically removed".

Anwway, when the Numenorean survivors sent ships west to see what happened, they ended up circumnavigating (circling) the globe, ending up back where they started. However, they noticed that Elves STILL sailed West when they wanted to go there.

So they developed this theory: The ships of the Elves headed West for the Undying Lands head far out at sea, and then one day while heading west their ship rises above the waves and through the sky, past the clouds ---->"The Grey Rain curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass...and then you see it" and then you land in the Undying Lands

Now it's not just "floating in space", you sail there and Valinor is surrounded by oceans (as there are coasts, "white shores"). But only Elf ships can reach there, as if the Valar (Powers that Be) only grant passage to the Elves (or Elf friends).


--->Tolkien made it very cleare that the Undying Lands don't make a mortal "Undying"; the name comes from their immortal inhabitants. Any mortal living there would actually have not so good a time, he said, because while everyone else there stays eternally young he would get old and die in what appeared to be a (relatively) rapid way (not that the rate changes, it's just that living with the immortals so long make you painfully aware of your advancing mortality).

So he said that any mortals traveling there live out theirt normal life span and then die.

[The Prophet]

Now, Frodo and Bilbo leave for the Undying Lands. The Passing of the Keepers of the Rings (including Elrond, Gandalf, and Galadriel) on the ship (the same year as the Fall of Barad-dur and final defeat of Sauron) marks the end of the Third Age (as Galadriel said) and begins the Fourth Age (the Age of the Dominion of Men, as in 100 generations or so the other races fade out, though they already more or less have).

But anyway, this means that Third Age year 3021 (when Frodo leaves) = Fourth Age year 1.

In Fourth Age 63, Rose Cotton dies (of old age) and Sam goes to the Grey Havens and takes a ship West, and travels to the Undying Lands.

Now, there he would have met Gandalf (who is an angelic Maia spirit and not a Man at all), Galadriel, and Elrond again (though Bilbo was certainly dead by that point).

In Fourth Age 63, Frodo would have been about 116 (53+63). Mind you, average Hobbit life expectancy is 100 years old and Hobbits have been known to live to 130 years old (Bilbo's own grandfather set the record [that Bilbo later broke] of 130, so Bilbo and Frodo are from a very long lived family).

So Frodo was probably still alive when Sam when there (though now very old) and they and Gandalf and the others probably spent some years in the Undying Lands before they died of old age.


****In the Appendix it says that after Aragorn died (in Fourth Age 120, at the age of 210) Legolas finally decided to follow the call that all Elves have to one day sail West over the sea, and he built himself a boat to sail West in. That same year (120) Legolas set sail Into the West and left Middle-earth.....taking his good friend Gimli the Dwarf with him!

You can count on one hand the number of Men that have ever sailed West to they Undying Lands (Hobbits count as Men), but NEVER had a Dwarf ever sailed to the Undying Lands. --->the suggestion is that he wanted to go because of his friendship with Legolas, and though it was thought strange that the Valar would permit it or that the Elves would accept him, it's thought that Lady Galadriel pulled in the favor for him, knowing that he wished to see her once again (you wouldn't understand if you haven't seen FOTR EE, but I think most have). He was very old, having reached usual Dwarf life expectancy at 250, and Frodo and Same were probably dead by then, but he saw the rest of the characters there.

Thus the last living members of the Fellowship of the Ring left Middle-earth.

Despondent at Aragorn's death, Arwen leaves and spends a year in the now-deserted forest of Lothlorien, until a year later in 121 "the long years of her life are utterly spent" and she lays down to die; perhaps, if there is more beyond when we die, "more beyond the circles of the world than just memory", for her spirit to be reunited with Aragorn's again. That what Aragorn told her on his deathbed. He didn't know this would happen. But he hoped.