The Draft

[Brock Landers]

Well, here it comes it seems:

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5834001&content_dir=ua_congressorg



Damnit.

[Vincenzo]

Wow.....

[Inferno]

Is this real?

[Brock Landers]

Originally posted by Inferno
Is this real?

Congress.org



That's pretty official

[todd philip]

free country my ass

[Inferno]

Originally posted by Brock Landers
Congress.org



That's pretty official

Ok, but what are the chances of this actually getting passed? Maybe this is just some bill brought in by a couple of idiots trying to make a statement but will never get anywhere.

[todd philip]

Originally posted by Inferno
Ok, but what are the chances of this actually getting passed? Maybe this is just some bill brought in by a couple of idiots trying to make a statement but will never get anywhere. most likely

[JBond]

"Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era.

College and Canada will not be options."

Well shucks, those were my two ideas.

[jg51x]

I probably wouldn't be so upset if there was a cause I was willing to fight for if I was called to, but with what's going on in Iraq, I couldn't go over to fight for that.

A couple of weeks ago a soilder who had recently come back from Iraq came to talk to my newswriting class. I asked him about the draft and he said he didn't want it to happen. He said anybody he is fighting with better be damn sure they want to be there. He wouldn't want to fight with somebody who didn't because obviously they won't fight like somebody who voluntered.

[Necross]

College wont be an option? This won't get passed, its like saying, lets destroy everyone's lives by pulling them out of college so they can't further their education and instead force them to join the army to go fight a war that doesn't need more troops.

[Brock Landers]

Originally posted by JBond
"Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era.

College and Canada will not be options."

Well shucks, those were my two ideas.

The thing with Women getting drafted is what shocked me the most. Hmmmmm, will Bush's daughters get drafted? Hell no. ;)

[JBond]

Originally posted by Brock Landers
The thing with Women getting drafted is what shocked me the most. Hmmmmm, will Bush's daughters get drafted? Hell no. ;)

Man I didn't even see that, that would include my sister too.

[JimmyDean]

Sorry, no war for me.

I'll leave the bombing of the little brown people in other countries to our brave leaders.

[Necross]

This draft thing is insane, its basically saying everyone over the age of 18 can be forced into the army. Way to destroy our freedom.

[Brock Landers]

Originally posted by Necross
Way to destroy our freedom.

**thinks of the Patriot Act**


Swear to god we're going down the road of "1984"

[poeman]

wow this is not good, im gonna go to college this year. wtf i dont wanna go to war.

I will forever hate America if this happens, and im american

[Soulless]

I'd rather see the second coming of the Ice Age before seeing the draft go into effect. I thought America was the land of opportunity and freedom. The draft is basically tyranny. I wish I had a lot of money because I'd not hesitate one bit to moving out of here.

[poeman]

i will not particapte in any war... if this is for real, i am a believer of God and this stuff is something i will not take part with, im 17 and im not ready to fight Bush's $hit of a mission. I HIGHLY think if this is known to the people. HEADS will roll and bush is gonna get his as$ handed big time. NO WAY! Im against this thing, id leave america for good then

[Vincenzo]

We sure are...BIG BROTHER!!

[DolAmroth]

I guess im gunna have to move to Mexico for the rest of my life cause its either that or go die in Iraq

[Brock Landers]

If they actually REINSTATED it, I'd immediately go out and enlist in to say, The Coast Guard, or get a nice comfy desk job filing papers or something.

[zamphir66]

Let me play Devil's Advocate, just for the sake of debate:

Every major conflict in American history has involved conscription, so it's not as if this would be something new. Furthermore, we all take for granted the things we receive from our government. How many of us would be in school if there were no Stafford loans, or Pell Grants? I wouldn't. When tornadoes or floods hit my town, which is sorta common, Uncle Sam is the first one here to help with money, shelter, manpower, etc. My grandparents have SS benefits and health insurance (no it's not that much, but it's a lot better than nothing.) Point of all this is, the government does a whole lot of things for us, many of which we don't even realize, and what's so wrong with giving something back? "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country, etc...." Maybe too many of us are just too content to take, take, take, but give little or nothing when it comes to the crunch.

Again, I don't necessarily believe all of the above, I just thought a different point of view would be interesting.

[Soulless]

Originally posted by zamphir66
Let me play Devil's Advocate, just for the sake of debate:

Every major conflict in American history has involved conscription, so it's not as if this would be something new. Furthermore, we all take for granted the things we receive from our government. How many of us would be in school if there were no Stafford loans, or Pell Grants? I wouldn't. When tornadoes or floods hit my town, which is sorta common, Uncle Sam is the first one here to help with money, shelter, manpower, etc. My grandparents have SS benefits and health insurance (no it's not that much, but it's a lot better than nothing.) Point of all this is, the government does a whole lot of things for us, many of which we don't even realize, and what's so wrong with giving something back? "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country, etc...." Maybe too many of us are just too content to take, take, take, but give little or nothing when it comes to the crunch.

Again, I don't necessarily believe all of the above, I just thought a different point of view would be interesting.
Giving back to your country is one thing, but being forced to do so without free choice is something all in it's own. I don't ask for anything from my country so by implementing the draft they're taking away my God given free will. I'm speaking about war of course. I don't believe in it.

[Necross]

I don't mind giving something back to the governemt. Just not my body to go fight some war that I don't believe in because the President couldn't care less if I were to die. I am willing to give things to the government, just not my life.

[poeman]

wait up if they dont want to give me loans or grnats then whatever i wont take them i will go to some community colleges ? is that possible. i did register for selective service because of fafsa for college. but if i had found out they were doing this then forget it

[zamphir66]

you're forced to pay your taxes, more or less.
you're forced to obey the law, well i mean there are consequences if you don't obviously.
you're forced to go to primary and secondary school.
you're forced to get licensed for driving, marriage, opening a business, etc. etc. etc.

there's tons of things that we are 'forced' to do, why does the draft mean we're not free, yet all of those other things still let us call ourselves free. Israel is called a democracy, and yet every man and woman must serve three years in the military, by law, does that mean that they are not really a democracy?

Again I want to stress that I'm not supporting the draft here, I'm just trying to have an interesting debate.

[Brock Landers]

Normally I would agree with you zamphir, but being drafted in to the Military is far different from say, being busted for Jaywalking. The Military service is different for the fact that you can CHOOSE to join it, rather than obeying the law which you should choose to obey and uphold. There's much more politics behind it, much more turmoil, and much more of a reason to choose.

You see what I mean?

[Soulless]

Originally posted by zamphir66
you're forced to pay your taxes, more or less.
you're forced to obey the law, well i mean there are consequences if you don't obviously.
you're forced to go to primary and secondary school.
you're forced to get licensed for driving, marriage, opening a business, etc. etc. etc.

there's tons of things that we are 'forced' to do, why does the draft mean we're not free, yet all of those other things still let us call ourselves free. Israel is called a democracy, and yet every man and woman must serve three years in the military, by law, does that mean that they are not really a democracy?

Again I want to stress that I'm not supporting the draft here, I'm just trying to have an interesting debate.
None of those things you mentioned involve dying. By saying not free if the draft is implemented I'm saying that nobody has the right to make me leave my home to fight someone else's war. This war should've been over a while ago.

[Necross]

Plus being forced to go to school is very different from being forced to join the army and fight and possibly die.

[Soulless]

Originally posted by Necross
Plus being forced to go to school is very different from being forced to join the army and fight and possibly die.
Exactly. There is no harm in picking up a pencil to learn and grow. You can't learn if you're dead because someone made you pick up a gun and leave the land you were born in.

[zamphir66]

Well enough debate, you're both right of course.

If this goes through, all hell will break loose.

I think it could make the '60s and 'Nam look like Disneyland.

[Brock Landers]

Originally posted by zamphir66
Well enough debate, you're both right of course.

If this goes through, all hell will break loose.

I think it could make the '60s and 'Nam look like Disneyland.

Maybe we'll get better Music because of it, too. The Vietnam era did have some good music ;)

[Necross]

Definetly, I'll be one of the Modern Hippies, just without the drugs and the STDs.

[zamphir66]

I hope they draft me and send me to England, so I can shoot Coheed and Cambria.

[zamphir66]

Imagine how full the jail will be with all of us refusers!!!

I am passing this article to everyone I know.

[Necross]

It'll be great though to be part of a protest like that. I mean this President is really ridiculous, he doesn't understand the concept of Seperation of Church and State and now he wants us to Fight his war, when he dodged the one he should have put his life on the line for.

[Brock Landers]

Originally posted by Necross
when he dodged the one he should have put his life on the line for.

No no no, he didn't DODGE, he went in to the National Guard. He did a mighty fine job keeping the Vietcong out of Dallas, as one comedian so eliquently put it :D

[poeman]

regarding the draft the nytimes and mercury news had posted this

An Internet-driven rumor mill about the possible return of a military draft is forcing Pentagon officials to step up denials that such plans are in the works.

Thursday, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said he didn't know of anyone in the executive branch who believes it would be necessary to reinstitute the draft.

``We have been very successful in recruiting and retaining the people we need,'' Rumsfeld told the Newspaper Association of America's annual convention in Washington, D.C. ``There were a lot of difficulties with the draft, as people may recall.''

But an avalanche of bad news in Iraq has left many, including members of Congress, unconvinced. April has been the deadliest month for U.S. soldiers since the war began, Spain is preparing to withdraw its troops, and at least 20,000 soldiers have had their deployments extended -- facts that have fueled a growing barrage of myths, rumors and conspiracy theories via e-mails and Web postings.

Sophie Lapaire, a Mountain View engineering manager, doesn't have any teenage sons. But she's convinced the government is planning to bring back the draft, and feels it's important to speak out against the possibility.

E-mail campaign

Last month, she sent an e-mail to a few friends, urging them to contact their congressional representatives. It has now boomeranged across the Web, and Lapaire has received replies from around the country.

``I'm worried that a draft is already in the works, and it isn't being communicated,'' said Lapaire. ``It should not be sneaked up on people.''

In Los Angeles, Aaron Russo, a Libertarian candidate for president, is asking supporters to sign an online petition to ``Stop the coming military draft before it starts.''

And a host of national anti-war organizations, from Veterans for Peace to Pax Christi USA, have deemed May 14 a ``Lobby Day Against the Military Draft.''

The Defense Department has repeatedly insisted this week that it does not want -- or need -- mandatory military service. From 1948 until 1973, in peacetime as well as the Vietnam War era, young men were drafted to fill vacancies in the armed forces that could not be filled with volunteers.

``Everyone is saying: `The draft is coming. The draft is coming,' '' said Dan Mamon, a media liaison for the Selective Service, which denies draft plans on the home page of its Web site. ``It's not true. Our budget has been flat-lined again for the third year in a row. The last person drafted was in June of 1973, and most will recall that that was a very disruptive and chaotic period.''

The draft debate began in earnest last spring, before the war with Iraq began. Democratic Rep. Charles Rangel of New York and others pointed out that poor people and members of minority groups are disproportionately represented in combat. Although the military is a volunteer force, many people enlist because they can't afford to go to college or see no other job opportunities. Rangel and Sen. Fritz Hollings of South Carolina have introduced bills to revive the draft, but no action has been taken on them.

In recent weeks, other members of Congress have brought up the idea of reviving some form of mandatory service. Tuesday, Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that he wants the United States to consider reviving the draft as part of a broader effort to ensure that all Americans ``bear some responsibility'' in defending the nation's interests.

But the idea of mandatory military service has been soundly rejected by conservatives as well as many liberals, not to mention the Pentagon.

``We are absolutely pleased with an exceedingly outstanding all-volunteer force,'' said Lt. Jane Campbell, a press officer for the Department of Defense. ``That is the basis of your military and has been for more than 30 years. An all-volunteer force is superior to draft or conscription, and it gives us a military that is experienced, smart, disciplined and, most importantly, made up of people who represent America.''

Misgivings persist

Some critics aren't so sure. Two active-duty U.S. soldiers who did not want to serve in Iraq have fled to Toronto, and the violence in Iraq shows little sign of abating.

``The Pentagon might change their mind,'' said Rep. Pete Stark, whose 13th congressional district includes Fremont. ``I can't understand why anyone would sign up for the reserves or the National Guard again, so it could very well be that they'll need a draft to supplement their numbers. In spite of what Rumsfeld says, they might need it.''

[JBond]

Personally I don't believe anything Rumsfeld says anymore.

[Juxton]

Since there are various reasons I would not be eligible for the draft, I'm not concerned for myself. But, if it came down to it, the sad truth is I'd rather run the risk of prison than dying in a war I don't believe in killing people I don't want to kill. And I'm not talking about terrorists and various "bad guys" because they are not the only ones killed.

The draft is wrong. You can't justify it.

[Necross]

I know, the draft is complete crap. I mean I am not voluntering for the army because frankly I wouldn't be any help on the battlefield, I may not be completely out of shape but I would probably die just in training. lol

[Mr.Matinee]

If I was ever drafted,I'd probably get to Iraq and just unload the M-16....hopefully this will keep me from getting drafted.;)

[Peter]

Originally posted by Brock Landers
Congress.org



That's pretty official NO!!!!!! congress.org is not official.......goverment sites are called .gov .....the congress website is called congress.gov and the house and senate websites are called house.gov and senate.gov

[Undome-Elenamin]

Good eye for detail Peter. I can't even get on the damn site but just the talk of reinstating the draft sent me up the wall. I won't say anything else only because anything I could have said has been said.

[eclipsedman]

Originally posted by Juxton
Since there are various reasons I would not be eligible for the draft, I'm not concerned for myself. But, if it came down to it, the sad truth is I'd rather run the risk of prison than dying in a war I don't believe in killing people I don't want to kill. And I'm not talking about terrorists and various "bad guys" because they are not the only ones killed.

The draft is wrong. You can't justify it.

As you stated above Juxton you don't have to worry about the draft, but choosing prison over serving is crazy. Talk about losing your freedoms. I am assuming you have never been to prison, and that is probably a good thing. Don't worry though I would put money down that there won't be a draft. I think it is more Liberal scare tactics against Bush. I mean seriously do you know anyone who has been affected by the Patriot Act? Most law abiding citizens don't need to worry about it.

[Kyle Katarn]

Originally posted by JBond
"Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era.

College and Canada will not be options."

Well shucks, those were my two ideas.

Don't worry, Jibbs, I got an idea! *pulls out pistol and shoots JBond in the foot..then gives him the pistol*

Now do me! ;)

And I DO give something back to the government EVERY SINGLE FRIDAY. It's called, 'taxes.'

[redman]

Originally posted by zamphir66
Let me play Devil's Advocate, just for the sake of debate:

Every major conflict in American history has involved conscription, so it's not as if this would be something new. Furthermore, we all take for granted the things we receive from our government. How many of us would be in school if there were no Stafford loans, or Pell Grants? I wouldn't. When tornadoes or floods hit my town, which is sorta common, Uncle Sam is the first one here to help with money, shelter, manpower, etc. My grandparents have SS benefits and health insurance (no it's not that much, but it's a lot better than nothing.) Point of all this is, the government does a whole lot of things for us, many of which we don't even realize, and what's so wrong with giving something back? "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country, etc...." Maybe too many of us are just too content to take, take, take, but give little or nothing when it comes to the crunch.

Again, I don't necessarily believe all of the above, I just thought a different point of view would be interesting.

is ur life worth a bit of $

i wouldnt think so

[Inferno]

Originally posted by Necross
I may not be completely out of shape but I would probably die just in training. lol

Will you be the guy that blows his brains out in a bathroom during basic training?

[Doomsday]

PRIVATE PYLE!!!! I WILL UNSCREW YOUR HEAD AND SH^T DOWN YOUR NECK!

[Kyle Katarn]

I'm out of shape, I'd have a heart attack or something.... :(

[redman]

Originally posted by Doomsday
PRIVATE PYLE!!!! I WILL UNSCREW YOUR HEAD AND SH^T DOWN YOUR NECK!

i'll never forget pyle after after that movie. so good.

that drill sargeant was pretty funny.

[Necross]

Originally posted by Inferno
Will you be the guy that blows his brains out in a bathroom during basic training?

Nah, maybe I'll shoot myself in the leg.

[Inval1d]

**** congress! :D

[Alien]

Well I'll never let anyone draft me, plus I'm in Scotland not America.

[Knerys]

I really don't think this is legit. As Peter said any official goverment sitewould be .gov not net or org or any thing else. Also Rumsfield said this was going to be short and sweet, and this said that he said the opposite. Bush told the people it was be ardous and long, but Rumsfield had this pinhead idea that we could just swoop in there and fix this thing in less then 6 months. If you can't tell I can't stand the man, but it would not be in his or this adminstrations best interest to "secretly" reinstate the draft.

And just because some one suspects it will happen doesn't mean it is or will. Rumors about that draft have been flying around since the war started. And a lot of conspiracy theorist have come out of the wood work. it's hard to judge what true and whats just a theory any more.

[Alien]

Too many people would tell them where to stick it these days.

[southern]

they wouldn't need it

the army (at least from what i know) had almost all their expectations exceeded when it came time for soldiers to relist

[Knerys]

Rigth now probably.

But I have been reading some of the stuff on the site and it's....not what you would call...official. It sounds more like an editorial board really.

[equipe]

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_cong_bills&docid=f:h163ih.txt

This is a little more official.

[equipe]

Here's the senate bill

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c108:./temp/~c108zCftNv

[2_much_popcorn1]

bush for prez

[Alien]

A fitting game (http://www.miniclip.com/bushshootout.htm).

[ip_guru]

Since I am a political junkie, I thought I would hop in here. First, the site is a real site, but it is not the US government. It is a site managed by a group of people that wish to get citizens more active. A political action group, so to speak.

There are two real bills, one in the house (HR.163) and one in the senate (S.89). If you go to the official government sites you can read the overview. Here is the overview from the actual US government sites:

"To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period
of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes."

Civilian service is the out that most people who object to military action would take. In the full text there are also clauses on objection, etc... HOWEVER, there is more to this than the surface discussion.

Politics like this are never what they seem on first glance. The senate bill is introduced by Senator Ernest Hollings (D) from SC. The house bill is introduced by Rep. Charlie Rangle (D) from NY. Both those guys despise Bush to the core.

There are no cosponsors of the senate bill, it is Hollings alone. The house bill has 14 cosponsors. All cosponsors are Democrats. This is a politically designed bill, one that these Democrats introduced for the exact purpose of creating the type of hysteria we are reading on this board. This bill has zero support from any Republicans and zero support from moderate Democrats. In other words, it cannot pass.

This is not from the Pentagon, not some secret hush hush plot, not some new secret plan from Bush, it is pure politics - played from the left side of the isle on this issue. The Democrats are introducing a bill, that has no chance of passing, simply to provoke the reponse that they are getting.

[bbf2]

Originally posted by ip_guru
This is not from the Pentagon, not some secret hush hush plot, not some new secret plan from Bush, it is pure politics - played from the left side of the isle on this issue. The Democrats are introducing a bill, that has no chance of passing, simply to provoke the reponse that they are getting.

Isn't politics great?

[ip_guru]

Originally posted by bbf2
Isn't politics great?

It makes me sad. :(

My wife never knew much about politics, but I am a very political person. About 8 years ago she asked me to 'teach' her how to read events and how politics work. I've worked on campaigns, and have seen much of it firsthand. So, I did teach her, and now she gets sad. The more you learn, the more depressing it gets.

On one hand, you knw the system so you can read it better, on the other it just gets so damn annoying. I want to get involved in politics in a more significant way, but the whole thing just has such a dirty feeling, so to speak.

These days, with the current state of the world, it is really almost impossible to have an educated and even-tempered political discussion, let alone debate. No one thinks, just sound bites.

I was going to run for our local state rep last time, but I could not declare a party to run for. And, despite the attraction of the independent option, if you are not rich it is hard to do it all on your own, you need the party's help.

I think I'll just end up making my own political party. :)