Orcs can climb up walls

[DolAmroth]

Ok in the FOTR in moria just before the balrog came all the orcs were climbing down the huge pillars and they where all over the walls and everything. So if they can do that then does that mean at the Seige of minas tirith they will be able to just climb up the city walls. I just kinda thought about it.

[PsYkOoOoO]

i was wondering bout the same too...they can climb walls?hmmm

[DolAmroth]

Oh maybe those were goblins in moria and not orcs and at the Pelennor Fields I dont think there are any goblins so thats why they have seige towers

[PsYkOoOoO]

but how did they do it?spider webs like spidey?

[DolAmroth]

I think they have like sticky hands and feet lol I dont know there kinda like cockroaches so they can climb up walls.

[KenM]

It was goblins in Moria. On the Director's commentary from FoTR EE, PJ mentioned that since these goblins live underground, they made some equipment to help them climb the walls, ect. If you pause it, you can see the hooks in they're boots, ect.

[PsYkOoOoO]

but then again..think about this...in the hobbit when the dwarves and bilbo were hiding on top of the trees to hide from teh goblins..those goblins couldve just climbed the trees with their sticky hands right...but they didnt...why?

[Morgoth]

Orcs and Goblins are the same thing...a lot of the terminology changes between 'The Hobbit' and LoTR

On the Director's commentary from FoTR EE, PJ mentioned that since these goblins live underground, they made some equipment to help them climb the walls, ect. If you pause it, you can see the hooks in they're boots, ect.

I think this explains it...the "wall climbing" orcs/goblins were a liberty taken by the film.

[PsYkOoOoO]

thats what i think as well..but i think there IS a difference between orcs and goblins..

[Morgoth]

there IS a difference between orcs and goblins..

I don't think so...

What Bilbo would call a "goblin" is an "orc" to Frodo...

Orc/Goblin is the same entity in regards to Tolkien...different but related in regards to traditional D&D, IIRC.

[PsYkOoOoO]

then how come legolas said,'goblins!' when he saw the arrows in moria but refered to them later as orcs?

[downflow311]

orcs and goblins are two different races. both similar and different. goblins seem to be more insect-like and orcs are more human-like. goblins are quite a bit smaller too.

[Morgoth]

orcs and goblins are two different races. both similar and different. goblins seem to be more insect-like and orcs are more human-like. goblins are quite a bit smaller too.

I believe we are subscribing too much to the D&D conception of "orcs" and "goblins"...

...the terms are interchangable in Tolkien's works. Note that in the Prologue of FoTR Tolkien refers to Bilbo's experiences in the mountains and the discovery of the ring -- he uses the word: "orcs". In 'The Hobbit' the term used is "goblins"

They are not different, nor does the movie really show them to be different. The goblins/orcs within Moria (despite climbing the walls with hooked boots, etc.) differ only in vague terms of hideousness with the goblins/orcs employed by Saruman.

The Uruk-hai created by Saruman are cross-bred orcs...in TTT (Book) it is Treebeard who suggests that Saruman has been doing such things.

Despite the liberties taken by the film, I am firmly convinced that "orcs" and "goblins" are the same thing...

[downflow311]

they look different to me, and i see them as different in appearence and behavior. i think d&d set the standard for these creatures, so thats how i look at them. but then again, it doesnt matter to me if legolas is fighting an orc or a goblin, as long as i get to see a bad ass action setpiece.

[jeti]

Due to my newly acquired and brushed up knowledge of Westron and the speech of Middle-Earth (don't ask), I was able to recall and quickly find this:

Tolkien's explanation inside the story was that the "true" name of the creatures was Orc (an anglicised version of Sindarin Orch , pl. Yrch). As the "translator" of the ancient manuscripts, he "substituted" "Goblin" for "Orch" when he translated Bilbo's diary, but for The Red Book he reverted to a form of the ancient word.Read the entire article to elaborate.
Source: The Grey Havens, "What was the relationship between Orcs and Goblins?", http://tolkien.cro.net/orcs/goblins.html

[Morgoth]

Due to my newly acquired and brushed up knowledge of Westron and the speech of Middle-Earth (don't ask), I was able to recall and quickly find this:



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tolkien's explanation inside the story was that the "true" name of the creatures was Orc (an anglicised version of Sindarin Orch , pl. Yrch). As the "translator" of the ancient manuscripts, he "substituted" "Goblin" for "Orch" when he translated Bilbo's diary, but for The Red Book he reverted to a form of the ancient word.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read the entire article to elaborate.
Source: The Grey Havens, "What was the relationship between Orcs and Goblins?", http://tolkien.cro.net/orcs/goblins.html

:D

[PsYkOoOoO]

ive always imagine goblins to be bigger and smarter than orcs

[DolAmroth]

huh I always thought Orcs would be bigger and goblins kinda more small and gremlin like.

[downflow311]

Originally posted by downflow311
orcs and goblins are two different races. both similar and different. goblins seem to be more insect-like and orcs are more human-like. goblins are quite a bit smaller too.

thats what i said too

[Lasgalen]

I thought the Goblins were the smallest, then you had the orcs who were the middle guys, then the big bad Uruk-hai who were the 'elite'.

Doesnt Legolas always refer to Orcs as Yrch in the books anyway, so if they were the same he would have said 'yrch' not 'goblins' in Moria?

[Morgoth]

You cannot make hard-and-fast connections between the book and the movie because the movie is bound to take liberties, cut, switch etc...

...if you are going to go strictly by the book, it is, IIRC, (and as jeti posted) accepted knowledge that "orcs" and "goblins" are the same thing...it is merely a matter of Tolkien's "translation" and more linguistic depth. They are the same.

The movie may well have decided to portray them differently...I don't think so. I think all of the orcs/goblins bear basic similarities -- deformed, hideous, similar in size etc.

The Uruk-hai are superior to normal orcs/goblins. They are a crossbreed -- so says the book, so says the movie. In the book Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin that Saruman has either corrupted humans or bred humans and orcs to create the Uruk-hai. In the movie it is Gandalf who comments on them to Elrond, he does say something about orcs and goblins...so it is possible the movie has chosen to differentiate. That may very well be possible, but it is not in keeping with the books.

[RingWraith2k4]

I like to believe that they are different from smallest to largest.
But I'm wondering if some of the orcs in Mordor are as big as Uruk hai. In the black gates in the TTT movie, some look bigger than others.

[Cloud Buster]

Guys, Morgoth is RIGHT. Read the books again -- the word "goblin" is simply the common tounge translation for the word "orc". It means the same thing.

However, not all orcs are created equal. The moria orcs have spent a LONG time dwelling underground in caves in the pitch black darkness. Their bodies have adapted as such through the generations -- their eyes are very large because there's very little light, and they've developed extraordinary climbing abilities hich are required in many parts of the moutains' underworld.

There are orcs from Mordor, and different yet orcs from the north. The chapter "The Fighting Uruk-Hai" in TTT talks a bit about the different places the orcs were coming from, and the personal differences they had which ultimately leads to Merry and Pippin's escape.

Saruman's Uruk-Hai are a cross breed of different orcs and God knows what else to create a powerful soldier. There's a part in ROTK where Frodo theorizes that Sauron is able to corrupt creatures and make them, well, 'evil', by "feeding them fell meats" among other things.

[obsessedwithsnl]

what are goblin-men?
gandalf in the movie says that uruk-hai are crosses between orcs and goblin-men

[DolAmroth]

And he said something about foulcot

[PsYkOoOoO]

foulcot?

[The Moose]

that's what i am wondering

[DolAmroth]

ya gandalf said the word foulcot or something that sounded like that.

[Cloud Buster]

Never heard of "foulcot". It was not in the book. Maybe you misheard it? What part did he say that, I'll check the closed captioning / subtitles.

About Goblin-Men: I remember Gandalf saying that in the movie, but I don't recall Goblin-Men from the books. However, I haven't read the appendecies extensively which talks about a lot of that stuff regarding the various sub groups of the different races. There may even be a bit of it in the Silmarillion.

[jeti]

I am not sure of the exact meaning of the word "goblin", but I thought that by "Goblin-Men" Gandalf meant men of the human race who were "borderline orcs" - something alike those Saruman enraged into attacking Rohan. They seemed both primitive and evil.

[mistamovie]

Didn't Bilbo say Frodo's sword would glow blue when orc's were near by? it was glowing in moria so my guess is orc's and goblins are the same (at least to bilbo) or there was a little mix up (which i doubt)

[PsYkOoOoO]

maybe those are orcs...maybe they took over the caveS?mmm

[Morgoth]

I am not sure of the exact meaning of the word "goblin", but I thought that by "Goblin-Men" Gandalf meant men of the human race who were "borderline orcs" - something alike those Saruman enraged into attacking Rohan. They seemed both primitive and evil.

This is what I thought as well...rather vague and confusing on behalf of the writers, but there you go.

As far as subraces etc., the Silmarillion refers only to the creation of the orcs [as a perversion of the elves...tortured slaves in the service of the Dark Lord].

Maybe those are orcs in Moria, orcs and goblins are the same thing...even in the movie. :)

[PsYkOoOoO]

grrr....then why all the different names tolkien?!?!

[adt100]

Human, Homo-Sapien, Man Woman, Boy Girl, etc, in our society we also have numerous names for people and places just the same.

[PsYkOoOoO]

hahaa...homo sapiens..reminds me of a joke from friends..

joey,'ross can i ask you a scientific question?'
ross,'sure..what is it?'
joey,'if the homo-sapiens really are HOMO-sapiens...is that why they are extinct?'

[Gastric ReFlux]

How did they feed all those goblins/orcs in Moria?

[PsYkOoOoO]

each other?

[Gastric ReFlux]

Originally posted by PsYkOoOoO
each other?

But that couldn't work forever.

[PsYkOoOoO]

go out hunting for animals like cavemen?

[Gastric ReFlux]

I don't remember seeing any cavemen in the movies, or are they something we should assume?

[PsYkOoOoO]

as in..they go out hunting

[Gastric ReFlux]

Do they cook the cavemen or eat them raw?

[PsYkOoOoO]

as in....go out to hunt LIKE the cavemen...

[Morgoth]

Do they cook the cavemen or eat them raw?

Glad you asked!

I'm almost certain that raw was the choice of most orcs. Manflesh tartar was a prime delicacy in the orcish community.

Beyond that maggoty bread, raw fish and bugs would suffice to sustain the orcs. Cannibalism, it seems to me, would be a last resort, though it is accepted that orcs did live by Darwinian rules such as survival of the fittest. In orcish society weakness translates into a one-way ticket to the dinner menu.

[PsYkOoOoO]

how did u know that?an orc yrself?

[Gastric ReFlux]

Originally posted by Morgoth
Glad you asked!

I'm almost certain that raw was the choice of most orcs. Manflesh tartar was a prime delicacy in the orcish community.

Beyond that maggoty bread, raw fish and bugs would suffice to sustain the orcs. Cannibalism, it seems to me, would be a last resort, though it is accepted that orcs did live by Darwinian rules such as survival of the fittest. In orcish society weakness translates into a one-way ticket to the dinner menu.

Thanks for clearing that up. I've got so many questions about the dietary habits of creatures of Middle Earth. In fact, you'll see in another thread I gave somebody advice about what snacks to eat while watching LOTR, so it's kind of an obsession of mine. Anyhow, here's what I would like to know now:

Saruman created a superorc, the Uruhk High or something. Would they like feasting on lesser run-of-the-mill orcs? I don't mean as a last resort like you mentioned, but I mean as an every day dietary staple.

[PsYkOoOoO]

i dont think they eat orcs daily...

[Morgoth]

Saruman created a superorc, the Uruhk High or something. Would they like feasting on lesser run-of-the-mill orcs? I don't mean as a last resort like you mentioned, but I mean as an every day dietary staple.

Yes indeed, I believe that the Uruk-hai did eat their lesser brethren. It may not have been the basis of their food pyramid, mind you, but certainly lesser orcs were a regular entree for the Uruk-hai.

There is certainly some debate as to the jerked meat that the Uruk-hai offered to the hobbits Meriadoc and Peregrin during their "run" to Isengard. It may have been manflesh, horsemeat or orcish flesh.

Given the intense racial tension between the Uruk-hai who adopted a position of superiority and the other orcs who were, by contrast, far inferior, it only makes sense that one method of sustaining your place at the top of the hierarchy was by eating your lessers.

Bow down or be sliced into strips and jerked. Simple yet effective.

[Gastric ReFlux]

Originally posted by Morgoth
Yes indeed, I believe that the Uruk-hai did eat their lesser brethren. It may not have been the basis of their food pyramid, mind you, but certainly lesser orcs were a regular entree for the Uruk-hai.

There is certainly some debate as to the jerked meat that the Uruk-hai offered to the hobbits Meriadoc and Peregrin during their "run" to Isengard. It may have been manflesh, horsemeat or orcish flesh.

Given the intense racial tension between the Uruk-hai who adopted a position of superiority and the other orcs who were, by contrast, far inferior, it only makes sense that one method of sustaining your place at the top of the hierarchy was by eating your lessers.

Bow down or be sliced into strips and jerked. Simple yet effective.

Interesting. I hadn't really considered, before now, the use of food as a political bludgeoning tool. Do you suppose then, that if someone were to teach orcs and Uruk-hai about democratic ideals, they would give up their cannibalistic traits? Or do you think they would remain ferociously cannibalistic and eventually become a society like the one portrayed in the movie, Soylent Green?

[PsYkOoOoO]

exactly what happens in reality nowadays...slice or be sliced...gulp

[Morgoth]

...if someone were to teach orcs and Uruk-hai about democratic ideals, they would give up their cannibalistic traits? Or do you think they would remain ferociously cannibalistic and eventually become a society like the one portrayed in the movie, Soylent Green?

I suspect that orcish kind would never take to notions of true democratic ideology. I suspect that some breed of Facism is the only ideology that would stick.

So, yes, orcish society writ large would probably be very similar to the dystopia of 'Soylent Green', though even more chaotic. I think the desolation of Isengard, of Mordor and even in the once brilliant dwarven halls of Khazad-dum show that orcs strip the land of all natural resources, are wasteful and pollute for pleasure. Eventually food would be hard to come by and those who do not live by cannabilism may well end up with a reliance on food substances coded by color.

[Gastric ReFlux]

Originally posted by Morgoth
I suspect that orcish kind would never take to notions of true democratic ideology. I suspect that some breed of Facism is the only ideology that would stick.

So, yes, orcish society writ large would probably be very similar to the dystopia of 'Soylent Green', though even more chaotic. I think the desolation of Isengard, of Mordor and even in the once brilliant dwarven halls of Khazad-dum show that orcs strip the land of all natural resources, are wasteful and pollute for pleasure. Eventually food would be hard to come by and those who do not live by cannabilism may well end up with a reliance on food substances coded by color.

That's scary. I'm going to have to root for the hobbits to win now, even though I think they overeat and smoke tobacco.

Next question: in Middle Earth, do women do most of the cooking? I ask this because it is their natural inclination, but presence of characters like Eowyn and the Liv Tyler chick make me think there might have been a woman's liberation movement in Middle Earth. So it might be that the men had to start cooking a lot more, and that's why Sauron is gaining in power, because the men have been distracted from manly duties like patrolling the gates of Mordor.

[Morgoth]

Next question: in Middle Earth, do women do most of the cooking? I ask this because it is their natural inclination, but presence of characters like Eowyn and the Liv Tyler chick make me think there might have been a woman's liberation movement in Middle Earth. So it might be that the men had to start cooking a lot more, and that's why Sauron is gaining in power, because the men have been distracted from manly duties like patrolling the gates of Mordor.

Actually, I think that the women of Middle Earth were far less oppressed than our own women were. Were someone like Eowyn, Arwen or even Galadriel to exist in our time [dating back, say, 1000 or so years] they would certainly be burned as witches.

Eowyn's ability to step outside of her "domestic sphere" and aspire to be a warrior maiden is only one hint that women in Middle Earth were not so narrowly defined.

No, I suspect that is wasn't the switching of 'traditional' gender roles that paved the way for Sauron's return and expansion but the moral and societal decay of Gondorian society. Patrol the entrances to Mordor? No! "Let us smoke pipe-weed and mingle with the Rhovanion women" was the order of the day. Thus was the staunch blood of Numenore diminished, correlating to the decline of Gondor's power. Madison Grant might subscribe to very similar thoughts...

[Cloud Buster]

FOR THE LAST TIME, 'GOBLINS' ARE ORCS!!!

(Not in reference to anything you were saying Morgoth, just back a page ago)