View Full Version : Eomers banishment parchment
http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/8376.jpg
Ugh, am I the only one who cringe at this particular picture? It strikes me that "plain english" never seem to have been the chosen language in official matters in Tolkiens universe. Would something like this not have been written in some form of elvish?
I actually have my doubts that this shot will be used anywhere in the movie. First of all, the parchments says nothing new which Grima did not say directly to Eomer in the first place. And for what purpose would Grima be waving this parchment around? To break Eowyn perhaps? That is possible. But it seems more like an actor holding an unused prop. Dourif does not seem to be wearing much makeup either. He does not look as pale and vile as he did in the movie.
What about Gandalf reading Isildurs account of the One Ring? I do not recall if those parchments were also written in plain english or elvish. I have to get home to check. I think it would be a bit... inconsistent.
Well, just my thoughts... any ideas?
PsYkOoOoO
09-10-2003, 07:06 AM
...FIRSTLY
we've already seen this picture..no point making a brand new thread out of it...
SECONDLY...
why make it elvish when they are not elves at all?doesnt make sense at all...hobbits use english as well...i dont see the problem with that...what you mean all the races must use elvish?the rohan people speaks english and do not have their on specific type of language..
and brad not putting enough make up what the hell is that?:rolleyes:
movieaddict
09-10-2003, 07:27 AM
I'm with you there PsYkOoOoO. There's no way the Rohirrim would speak or write in Elvish. They are NOT Elves! They haven't had dealings with Elves for ages.
On that pic doesn't it look like Brad's eyebrows are growing back enormously?! :)
-Mel
adt100
09-10-2003, 07:36 AM
Yes, I agree with PsYkOoOoO.
1. Of course they write in English in Rohan, as that is their language ('the tongues of men' as Treebeard says in TTT)
2. This is a screencap direct from the EE!
Originally posted by PsYkOoOoO
...FIRSTLY
we've already seen this picture..no point making a brand new thread out of it...Ok, what the hell is this? I did neither say nor pretend this was in any way new. Also, I wanted to hear people's thoughts about this particular picture regarding this particular topic... does that not justify a new thread? I for one prefer short threads rather than carrying out a prolonged, continous and multi-topic 65-page conversation. But maybe that is just me.
Originally posted by PsYkOoOoO
SECONDLY...
why make it elvish when they are not elves at all?doesnt make sense at all...hobbits use english as well...i dont see the problem with that...what you mean all the races must use elvish?the rohan people speaks english and do not have their on specific type of language..Ok, then let me hear your explanation for the One Ring having - quote - "some sort of elvish" - written on it. Neither Sauron nor orcs are elves either, right?
Also, why oh why did the gate to moria require the ELVISH word for "friend" as a password to enter the realm of the DWARVES? I suppose that does not make any sense to you either, then. And the gate itself, did it not have elvish runes on it?
There may be perfectly sound explanations for all this, but my point is that I think my question was indeed very valid and far from being as ridiculous as you seem to imply.
Though the book is written AS IF they speak in english, I never took that as a guarantee that they do IN FACT speak english. God knows everything else in this universe is strange indeed, so why not the language? Old war movies also have germans speak english, but that did never cause any confusion in my mind that germans actually speak german. It can easily be a poetic license taken by the director / author to make it easier on the consumer. Just as everyone with a little education speaks english in our world, so do I believe that everyone with a little culture in middle-earth would speak elvish.
Originally posted by PsYkOoOoO
and brad not putting enough make up what the hell is that?:rolleyes: Well, I hope that some day you can find it in your heart to forgive me for making that observation.
movieaddict
09-10-2003, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by jeti
Ok, then let me hear your explanation for the One Ring having - quote - "some sort of elvish" - written on it. Neither Sauron nor orcs are elves either, right?
Also, why oh why did the gate to moria require the ELVISH word for "friend" as a password to enter the realm of the DWARVES? I suppose that does not make any sense to you either, then. And the gate itself, did it not have elvish runes on it?
There may be perfectly sound explanations for all this, but my point is that I think my question was indeed very valid and far from being as ridiculous as you seem to imply.
Well, I hope that some day you can find it in your heart to forgive me for making that observation.
I'm sorry I don't remember exactly right now, but Sauron was no Elv, but he lived with them or was he actually an Elv. He was with the Valar before he got kicked out and later made the one ring.
As for the Moria gate...it is an entrance into a dwarf realm - you're correct there - but it is the elvish side of Moria and in the old ages the two races were friends. So the gate has the "opening meachanism" on it in elvish so the Elves could get in!
-Mel
P.S. I didn't mean to be harsh in my first post;)
Morgoth
09-10-2003, 08:39 AM
On Sauron:
Sauron was a maiar, a sort of lesser-being beneath the Valar. He was originally one of those that belonged to Aule (the smith, the creator of the dwarves) but was drawn to the shadow of Melkor. He was a shapeshifter/vampire type of being Silmarillion]. He did move among the Elves in the Second Age where he proposed the crafting of the Rings of Power. The language on the ring of power is the "Black Tongue" of Mordor...
On the Rohirrim:
The language of Rohan was indeed similar to "ancient English" and related to the language of the Hobbits, who recognized much of their own language in that spoken by the people of Rohan.
The Elf King
09-10-2003, 09:35 AM
About the gate of Moria, it was used by the Elves to travel from one side of the tunnel to the other, and if you think about it both sides was close to the Elve citys, Rivendal and Lothlórien.
And yes the Dwarves and Elves was good friends in the old age but something from the deep came alive to spoil there friend ship :) I'm probly 100% wrong on that bit but the first part of what I have said is correct.
PsYkOoOoO
09-10-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by jeti
Ok, then let me hear your explanation for the One Ring having - quote - "some sort of elvish" - written on it. Neither Sauron nor orcs are elves either, right?
well frodo said,'some sort of elvish' yes..but frodo NEVER left the shire...thats a fact...how is he able to recognise that it is elvish...its just like someone from africa not knowing the difference between spanish and french..to them its all a foreign language...and also...if you noticed...the stuff written on the one ring is very different from elvish...its the language of mordor like what gandalf said...frodo simply assumed that it is elvish...since to him...it doesnt make a difference..
Originally posted by PsYkOoOoO
well frodo said,'some sort of elvish' yes..but frodo NEVER left the shire...thats a fact...how is he able to recognise that it is elvish...its just like someone from africa not knowing the difference between spanish and french..to them its all a foreign language...and also...if you noticed...the stuff written on the one ring is very different from elvish...its the language of mordor like what gandalf said...frodo simply assumed that it is elvish...since to him...it doesnt make a difference.. Now that is plain wrong. Frodo DOES know elvish, which you will notice at the encounter with Gildor Inglorion. I know the language used on the ring was "black tongue", yet the runes are elvish to my knowledge.
I think actually Gandalf explains the past friendship between elves and dwarves very well at the gates, so I am aware of it. Yet (IMHO) it still does not explain the fact that the dwarves wrote in elvish on their own doorstep, despite having a language and runes of their own. Afterall, by similar reasoning, if they were so good friends elves would similarly be well-acquainted with dwarwish, right? Does anyone know examples of elves writing in dwarvish to accomodate the dwarves? I doubt it.
I hope you can follow my logic here, because I do not intend to be obstinate. Also, I am nothing more than a common reader of the books, so if anyone can set me straight with some hard evidence on this it will be welcomed.
Until then, though, I believe that in the Tolkien universe, elvish plays a role in Middleearth which is not unlike the role latin had in our medieval times. Both had an aura of being the language of the intellectual and cultural elite, and THAT is why Sauron wrote in it, THAT is why the dwarves used it, and THAT is why King Théoden would not succumb to such plebeian language as "plain english".
Btw, Gandalf also identified himself with the elvish rune for "G". He also uses the elvish rune for G at Weathertop to communicate with Aragorn. And Bilbo refers to Aragorn as "THE Dúnadan", which is also elvish - yet neither Bilbo nor Aragorn are elves. I know Aragorn had many elvish names, but does it not strike you as odd to use it when neither of them are elvish?
Well, I guess I must live with it, though I think it is an inconsistency. I just think there are hints all over the book in favour of my understanding - that is where I got it in the first place. So I am a bit surprised to find myself alone with this point of view. Well... nevermind :)
PsYkOoOoO
09-10-2003, 12:36 PM
wait..why cant humans have elvish names..i cant have a english name but im might be chinese~
Well, it was you who initially said - quote - "why make it elvish when they are not elves at all?". Why would Bilbo, a hobbit, refer to Aragorn, a human, in elvish? UNLESS, as I claim, elvish is generally accepted as a superior language, known to most, and not unlike the role "plain english" and latin have (and had respectively) in our world.
It just strikes me that every single spell that Gandalf cast in the books is also spoken in elvish, is that not correct?
Originally posted by PsYkOoOoO
wait..why cant humans have elvish names..i cant have a english name but im might be chinese~ Btw, funny that you mention the Chinese, because many Chinese actually adopt english versions of their firstname to ease their international bussiness relationships. They do this because they recognize english as the language to use in international business. I have a personal friend who goes by her english name of Helen, and only her family refers to her by her Chinese name (Haiping).
So, does that comparison not also count in my favour?
adt100
09-10-2003, 01:08 PM
I really can't understand what you're getting at Jeti.
Book reader or not, there is no inconsistency and there is no confusion among anyone I've ever spoke to on these issues. The language of Men and Hobbits is English (or a form of ancient English, but obviously they won't call it that in ME!). The language of the Elves is Elvish. Yes they may be an important an influential race in ME, given their imortality, and their runes may be used on the gates of Moria and such, but so what? That really has no relevance to the point you raise.
We often use latin phrases in Enlglish, and Roman numerals, but our first language in English and all our documents are written as such.
PsYkOoOoO
09-10-2003, 01:32 PM
adt100 to the rescue~!
adt100
09-10-2003, 01:36 PM
I should have got me a Superman cape. ;) :D
PsYkOoOoO
09-10-2003, 01:40 PM
interesting..hahahaa..
Originally posted by adt100
I really can't understand what you're getting at Jeti. [...] That really has no relevance to the point you raise.Well, I am sorry you look at it this way, because I have tried my best to explain it. And I think indeed that my examples should have relevance to my point.
Originally posted by adt100
The language of Men and Hobbits is English.You state this as fact, and it may be - again, I am not trying to be obtuse here. Yet what is your basis for this understanding? Just referring to the written word of the book is not sufficient, since I am sure you agree that it should lead to no confusion that my copy is in Danish... so in my copy, I should consider Danish an abstraction for another language (you would say english), right? My point is that english may itself also be such an abstraction (for "Middle-Earth'ish"), and that a Tolkien version of a "babelfish" is sort of implied. So, I am indeed very curious whether Tolkien himself ever said (or wrote) somewhere (an appendix?) that "the common tongue of Men resembles an ancient form of english". Or something along those lines. I found in the early prologue that the hobbit-word of mathom could be traced back to the language of Rohirrim, but that is all on language. Can anyone find further info?
I do not mind being wrong, but I do prefer to hear some tangible reasons rather than just "it IS"... Afterall, this man loved to invent new languages! What is so outrageous in believing "common tongue" had nothing to do with english? There be dragons in these books, man! ;)
PsYkOoOoO
09-10-2003, 02:08 PM
i feel like ignoring this dude really...
Brock Landers
09-10-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by adt100
I should have got me a Superman cape. ;) :D
Can we make it out of cardboard? ;)
Morgoth
09-10-2003, 02:17 PM
You state this as fact, and it may be - again, I am not trying to be obtuse here. Yet what is your basis for this understanding? Just referring to the written word of the book is not sufficient, since I am sure you agree that it should lead to no confusion that my copy is in Danish... so in my copy, I should consider Danish an abstraction for another language (you would say english), right? My point is that english may itself also be such an abstraction (for "Middle-Earth'ish"), and that a Tolkien version of a "babelfish" is sort of implied. So, I am indeed very curious whether Tolkien himself ever said (or wrote) somewhere (an appendix?) that "the common tongue of Men resembles an ancient form of english". Or something along those lines. I found in the early prologue that the hobbit-word of mathom could be traced back to the language of Rohirrim, but that is all on language. Can anyone find further info?
This is written in the Appendix attached to the RoTK...on languages Tolkien writes that it made sense that the "Mannish" tongues were similar to "ancient English" ...
On the elves, dwarves and the Hollin gate of Moria...
IIRC the gateway was engraved not by the dwarves but by the elves...perhaps even Celebrimbor (the elven ring craftsman) himself. Though I believe it was another elf whose name is mentioned on the doorway -- I believe it is mentioned in FoTR.
and THAT is why King Théoden would not succumb to such plebeian language as "plain english".
...keep in mind that the Rohirrim play a role in Middle Earth somewhat akin to barbarians. That is to say that they are less advanced than the Edain who befriended the elves and went on to Numenore etc.etc. They are, in my mind, the ME incarnation of the Anglo-Saxons or close to it...
Remember also that the folk of Rohan fear the elves much as though they were "witches" and such...
adt100
09-10-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Brock Landers
Can we make it out of cardboard? ;)
Er, yeah ... if you like.
*walks slowly away in an inconspicuous manner*
adt100
09-10-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by jeti
You state this as fact, and it may be - again, I am not trying to be obtuse here. Yet what is your basis for this understanding?
I do not mind being wrong, but I do prefer to hear some tangible reasons rather than just "it IS"... Afterall, this man loved to invent new languages! What is so outrageous in believing "common tongue" had nothing to do with english? There be dragons in these books, man! ;)
I think you are reading far more into this and trying to complicate issues needlessly. In that sense you are being obtuse.
You do not need each film to state the languages in which a people use as their common tongue. It does not need to be written or spoken explicitly. Tolkien, being English, wrote LOTR in English, and as a result all the people of Rohan, Gondor etc, the race of 'Men' speak that language as their common tongue. Whether you call it sepcificall yEnglish or not is irrelevant (obvsiously they don't call it that as there is noe England in Middle Earth).
Elves are a different race and Tolkein decided to give them their own language, but they they are also bi-lingual it seems and use the ME equivalent of 'English' as a second language, just as English is the predominant language in our world.
Your initial comment was regarding the parchment, and why it wasn't written in Elvish runes. The answer as is apparent surely from the answers in this thread, is that Elvish is not the common tongue of Rohan, it seems that very few of the Rohirrim or Gondorians ever even have any dealing with the Elves and other such races, let alone know their language. This can be taken from either book or film, it doesn't really matter, the inference is the same. There is nothing remotely 'strange' about this, and I fail to see your apparent confusion or unease with it.
In the UK, the Queen's coat of arms has underneath it "Duet et mon droit" IIRC. Obviously latin, yet not used in general speech or writing.
Riddle
09-10-2003, 03:18 PM
In the appenices (and Unfinished Tales, i think..), Tolkien says that the "Common Tongue" is english.
There. Argument over. There is nothing more to debate.
Originally posted by PsYkOoOoO
i feel like ignoring this dude really... Please do. And so should everyone else who have no interest in the topic, or anything constructive to add for that matter. I thought that was common tact and sense. I can see that few share my view, but I do not see how that should justify turning this thread into spam. What exactly does it take to qualify as a valid poster here? I do not see that I have acted in any way unreasonable. Some of you claim that it is obvious that common tongue is like ancient english, but then why being so unwilling to try to back it up?
Thanks to Morgoth, you did clear up a lot for me.
Originally posted by Morgoth
This is written in the Appendix attached to the RoTK...on languages Tolkien writes that it made sense that the "Mannish" tongues were similar to "ancient English" ...But I cannot find the "similar to ancient English" part. Though I found:
Appendix F, The Languages and Peoples of The Third Age
The language represented in this history by English was the Westron or 'Common Speech' of the West-lands of Middle-earth in the Third Age.
...
The Westron was a Mannish speech, though enriched and softened under Elvish influence.
...
From the lands between the Gladden and the Carrock came the folk that were known in Gondor as the Rohirrim, Masters of Horses. They still spoke their ancestral tongue, and gave new names in it to nearly all the places in their new country; and they called themselves the Eorlings, or the Men of the Riddermark. But the lords of that people used the Common Speech freely, and spoke it nobly after the manner of their allies in Gondor; for in Gondor whence it came the Westron kept still a more gracious and antique style.
...
Appendix I, Writing and Spelling
The Westron or Common Speech has been entirely translated into English equivalents.Which can still be interpreted either way. I guess I will have to take Riddle's claim as truth since I do not own Unfinished Tales. A simple quote would appease my soul, though.
Originally posted by Morgoth
On the elves, dwarves and the Hollin gate of Moria...
IIRC the gateway was engraved not by the dwarves but by the elves...perhaps even Celebrimbor (the elven ring craftsman) himself. Though I believe it was another elf whose name is mentioned on the doorway -- I believe it is mentioned in FoTR.Yep, you seem to be right about that. "Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs". That explains the elvish. Thank you.
Originally posted by Morgoth
...keep in mind that the Rohirrim play a role in Middle Earth somewhat akin to barbarians. That is to say that they are less advanced than the Edain who befriended the elves and went on to Numenore etc.etc. They are, in my mind, the ME incarnation of the Anglo-Saxons or close to it...
Remember also that the folk of Rohan fear the elves much as though they were "witches" and such... You seem to be right about this, too. The appendix says, "The Dúnedain alone of all races of Men knew and spoke an Elvish tongue;"... and blah-blah. So, at least that explains why the Rohirrim would not write in Elvish. However, it says:
Appendix E, Writing and Spelling, The Cirth
The Cirth in their older and simpler form spread eastward in the Second Age, and became known to many peoples, to Men and Dwarves, and even to Orcs, all of whom altered them to suit their purposes and according to their skill or lack of it. One such simple form was still used by the Men of Dale, and a similar one by the Rohirrim.So, maybe I am still being outrageously newbie here, but does this not mean it is supposed to be written in the Cirth alphabet - whatever that is? That simple question may just do it for me.
Anyway, it was my dubious pleasure to try to add something to this board, and frankly I think the reception was somewhat lacking. I will let you all get back to whatever was so important. Thanks for your precious time.
adt100
09-10-2003, 03:55 PM
It's a valid comment to make, and to discuss if it's something that bothers you. I have no prbolem with that, but you are being extrememly pedantic about the issue and for some reason denying all reasonable logic and precedent, in favour of trying to be confrontational, expecting there to be, in black and white, explanation as to the exact specific of the language and just why the parchment is written in English/isn't written in Elvish.
You also seem to be being a little melodramatic about the whole thing in that last posts of yours. It is nothing to do with being new to the board, the way you first started the thread "Ugh, am I the only one who cringe at this particular picture ..." is a negative one, and you go on in similar vein trying specifically find fault with what is presented.
Cbars
09-10-2003, 05:11 PM
I can see why Jeti was offended. I would be too. I have seen a lot more trivial things debated a lot longer and a lot more loudly by some of you over the past months. It seems like some of you consider yourselves to be beyond reproach on these boards. Try being nice to someone besides those you consider your special friends for a change. I could go through this board and find instance after instance of people being treated rudely. I am not trying to be rude, but it would be nice if all the rest of us were treated with a little respect too.
adt100, if anyone, the crew of this movie is being extremely pedantic about the details shown. Take a look at the extra features in FoTR EE, and you will see how they took extra measures to construct EVERY little prop from scratch. The reason they give for this: they do not want to risk the audience seeing something familiar that will "burst their bubble" and take them back to reality.
This parchment did exactly that to me, though I will have no problems enjoying the film because of it. I just consider it a little mistake on their part for this very reason, which is why I did in fact think this picture was not part of the EE. I hindsight I would certainly have chosen my words with more care. And especially considering that "plain english" was already used in Bilbos book, map, and the account of Isildur. That was a mistake on my part.
Am I denying logic? I hope not. I can easily understand your point that the books can never refer to "English" within the context of the story. Tolkien should easily be able to do so in the context of the appendices, however. And I have yet to find any references to "ancient English". You believe it is implied, and that is your right. Yet to me implied knowledge can rarely be characterized as either especially logical or obvious to a casual reader.
A plethora of books and movies have been presented in one language, but are supposed to be "acting out" in another. This difference is actually also quite often implied. You see no logic in this? One quick example: "The Hunt for Red October", did you notice the little neat trick in the beginning? The zooming in on the russians mouth after which they all spoke english? It is the directors way of saying "look, I know these guys don't speak english, but let's just pretend they do from now on to make it a little easier on everyone". Yet author, director and actors were American. Surely you consider it implied knowledge that they speak Russian - not english?
So here I am going on and on and on about this, and I am surprised that not one of you LOTR afficionados jump at this opportunity to confront me with some hardhitting quotes to show me wrong and embarass me. I believe I paid more respect to your reasonings than you paid mine, so bring them on. I am susceptible to reason.
And failing that, I do not see how you can deny me that I might be right on this. To repeat myself, everything else in this universe is strange indeed, so why not 'Common Speech'?
Am I being confrontational? That may very well be. But that ought to be expected when people are cornered and jumped at from all sides. But I agree it does not help matters, so I will try not to. I certainly did not expect having my head bitten off raising this issue, nor to have to leaf through the appendices to try to justify that this was in no way a ridiculous question.
Based on my previous quote (last post) I still think it should have been written in Cirth? Any comments on that? That might actually settle the issue once and for all.
adt100
09-10-2003, 05:50 PM
Yes, sorry. Peter Jackson and co have really fcucked this one up, the picture makes me cringe (the make-up, the lack of Evlish runes, everything). I realise that there's absolutely no reason or documented evidence that the banishment should be in Elvish, but obviosuly it should and PJ hasn't explained well at all. Totally inconsitent. How foolish can I have been. :o
adt100
09-10-2003, 05:52 PM
Oh, and I stated in my first post, it is part of the EE as was a direct screencap from the DVD, it was posted originally on the New Line publicity site in high-res, then on TORN, and now today is up on the official LOTR site.
adt100
09-10-2003, 05:58 PM
Oh, and 1 other thing, why not look at it from another angle, that the banishment parhment is 'proof' of the language that is spoken, rather than vice versa. It needn't be called 'English' to in essence be exactly the same as English. There is no 'evidence' to the contrary, this is not at all like THFRO, the techniques used there very common in film-making and well done but not really applicable to LOTR. If the 'Crith' alphabet is to all intents and purposes the same in basic form to the English alphabet, then the argument is again rendered redundant.
If this is turning into a risk to your personal well-being, then for the sake of your health let us just agree they speak english. I do not know what caused this particular outburst, but I fail to see how it should helps matters either.
Riddle
09-10-2003, 07:08 PM
This "outburst", jeti, was brought on by your inability to accept the answer to your question.
You were put off by the fact that the parchment was written in english, and we explained that it is widely accepted that the "Common Tongue" of man in Middle Earth is in fact english.
But for some reason, you refuse to accept it with a redundant "Why?"
Morgoth
09-10-2003, 09:02 PM
Jeti,
In Appendix F of RoTK, I quote:
The Mannish languages that were related to Westron should, it seemed to me, be turned into forms related to English. The language of Rohan I have accordingly made to resemble ancient English...
Hope that helps! It is an interesting topic, hope you won't be scared away from other such inquiries.
Macbane
09-10-2003, 09:03 PM
I don't know if it's relevent or not to this heated debate ;) but I just watched FOTR and the scroll recounting Isuldur's finding of the ring was written in english. Or the common tongue... or whatever you decided to call it.
PsYkOoOoO
09-11-2003, 12:22 AM
now that explains it..
Originally posted by Morgoth
Hope that helps! It is an interesting topic, hope you won't be scared away from other such inquiries. Yes, it helps, Morghoth. Thanks for finally finding this reference to "ancient english". I will not be scared away, but I must say that I have not been enjoying the experience very much either.
I am, however, not quite convinced, and though I fear many of you will suspect I just twist words to piss you all off, I assure you that is not the case. My surprise on this issue is genuine, because it never crossed my mind that the exact style of the common language was not left to the imagination of the reader.
To be fair, I did find that Tolkien drew some comparisons with old english words, especially when he talked about the origin of mathoms, smials and thains. I think that is actually your best argument so far.
Your quote was taken from the chapter "On Translation", which I find relevant by itself. In this chapter Tolkien explains his reasons for presenting the book as we see it. In the introduction to the chapter he writes:
In presenting the matter of the Red Book, as a history for people of today to read, the whole of the linguistic setting has been translated as far as possible into terms of our own times. Only the languages alien to the Common Speech have been left in their original form; but these appear mainly in the names of persons and places.So, does this not mean Rohirrim langugage (which it not alien to Common Speech) as it appear in the book should be considered a translation into something that resembles ancient english?
A bit further down from your quote it reads
... it seemed absurd to leave the recorded names and words of the Rohirrim in a wholly alien style.Leave it in an alien style?
When English names or titles appear in this book it is an indication that names in the Common Speech were current at the time, beside, or instead of, those in alien (usually Elvish) languages.So, does this not mean English is used simply to present the reader with a sense of familiarity, and not much else?
Well, all just circumstantial evidence, and that is all we will ever get. Though I think at the very least you need to acknowledge that the issue is far from being univocal. I did not mean to discredit the movie however, so I apologize for the negative tone. But the writing on the parchment does not resemble ancient english - it IS ancient english (and not even very ancient either).
Still doubting me, then brace yourself and take a look at this.
Source: The Grey Havens, http://tolkien.cro.net/tolkien/thorough.html
How thoroughly realized was Tolkien's fiction that he was the "translator" of "The Lord of the Rings"?
From: The Tolkien FAQ by William D.B. Loos
Very thoroughly indeed. The scenario was that "of course" hobbits couldn't have spoken English (the story took place far in the past - see FAQ, Tolkien, 6); rather, they spoke their own language, called Westron (but often referred to as the Common Speech). Tolkien "translated" this language into English, which included "rendering" all the Common Speech place-names into the equivalent English place-names. The object of the exercise was to produce the following effect: names in the Common Speech (which were familiar to the hobbits) were "rendered" into English (in which form they would be familiar to us, the English-speaking readers); names in other languages (usually Sindarin) were "left alone", and thus were equally unfamiliar to the hobbits and to us. Since the story was told largely from the hobbits' point of view, that we should share their linguistic experience is a desirable result (especially for Tolkien, who was unusually sensitive to such matters).
In portraying the linguistic landscape of Middle-earth he carried this procedure much further. The main example was his "substitution" of Anglo-Saxon for Rohirric. The "rationale" was that the hobbits' dialect of Westron was distantly related to Rohirric; therefore, when hobbits heard Rohirric they recognized many words but the language nevertheless remained just beyond understanding (RK, 65 (V,3)). Thus, Tolkien attempted to further "duplicate" hobbit linguistic perceptions by "substituting" that language of our world (Anglo-Saxon) which has (more-or-less) the same relation to English that Rohirric had to the hobbit version of Westron.
There were many other nuances in the intricate and subtle linguistic web he devised (always, he carefully explained, in the interests of "reproducing" the linguistic map of Middle-earth in a way that could be easily assimilated by modern English-speaking readers). Thus:
a) Archaic English roots were used in those Common Speech place-names which were given long before the time of the story (e.g. Tindrock, Derndingle; see Guide).
b) Some of the Stoors (who later settled in Buckland and the Marish) dwelt in Dunland at one time (Tale of Years, entries for TA 1150 and 1630 (RK, App B)); the men of Bree also came from that region originally (RK, 408 (App F, I, "Of Men", "Of Hobbits")). "Since the survival of traces of the older language of the Stoors and the Bree-men resembled the survival of Celtic elements in England" (RK, 414 (App F, II)), the place-names in Bree were Celtic in origin (Bree, Archet, Chetwood) (see also Guide). Similarly, the names of the Buckland hobbits were Welsh (e.g. Madoc, Berilac).
c) Among hobbits some of the older Fallohide families liked to give themselves high-sounding names from the legendary past (an example of hobbit humor). Tolkien "represented" such names by names of Frankish or Gothic origin (Isengrim, Rudigar, Fredegar, Peregrin).
These matters and much else is explained in detail in Appendix F.
References:
The Return of the King, Appendix F
The Guide to the Names in the Lord of the Rings
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 174-176 (#144), 380-381 (#297)
The Road to Middle-earth, 88-89 (4, "Stars, shadows, cellar-doors: patterns of language and of history")Also, I found a very thorough (and very long) article concerning the Rohirrim, which you can find at http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/27414. He mentions that the Rohirrim was practically illiterate and "did not write", though Cirth and Tengwar would be known to some. A good read for those interested, and he sounds like he knows his stuff.
And I found another site, though a bit unofficial-looking, in which the author has spent a great deal of effort describing the language of Middle-Earth. You might want to take a look at his description of Westron at http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/westron.htm.
Well, I will leave it at that. I think I have tried to present my case as objectively and soberly as possible. I may have proven nothing, but it seems to me that others share my impression that it is by no means "obvious" that ancient english is the actual language used.
adt100
09-11-2003, 08:21 AM
I must say, you really are delving far and wide in pursuit of this point, and your interest and study of the nuances of Tolkein's world with regard language is commendable. As this is first and foremost a film message board, there is often no quite so much in depth and thorough analysis of the books. It's hard to guage the level of understanding and interest of Tolkein's work that new posters have, and how 'well read' they are.
Your first post in this thread honestly gave the impresison to me that you were more a pedantic film-goer than serious Tolkein enthusiast, maybe that was a misjudegement, but the langauge you yourself used did you no favours IMO.
If you are interested in such in depth discussion regarding the films and books I would suggest you check out the message boards at TolkienOnline.com (http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/) You may be able to find more of what you seek there.
In all honesty though, the information you have posted does not in reality change anything with regards your original comment, that is why the parchment was written in English and not Elvish for example. I do not see it as inconsistent with the book, but perhaps more importantly, it is not in anyway inconsistent with the film.
Hobbits converse with Rohirrim who converse with Gondorians, all in a 'common tongue'. Whether you call this Ancient English, Westron or whatever doesn't really matter, and has no bearing on what we see on the screen. The language we see the banishment written in is the language we hear the Rohirrim speak in. This is not akin to the film technique used in THFRO by virtue of the fact that all 3 peoples (and 2 races) I have mentioned converse with one and other without the need for translation. Dialects and certain words may differ, but it is not a 'foreign tongue', such as Elvish.
Again, I think you are reading far too much into this.
PsYkOoOoO
09-11-2003, 08:51 AM
i thought i am a LOTR-geek...
Originally posted by adt100
Your first post in this thread honestly gave the impresison to me that you were more a pedantic film-goer than serious Tolkein enthusiast, maybe that was a misjudegement, but the langauge you yourself used did you no favours IMO.I admit that. Point taken.
Originally posted by PsYkOoOoO
i thought i am a LOTR-geek...http://www.google.com
PsYkOoOoO
09-11-2003, 09:34 AM
whats the link for>?
Morgoth
09-11-2003, 10:31 AM
As far as I'm concerned you are preaching to the choir...I'm fairly well aware of Tolkien's approach to the "translation" of his work. Great links, BTW :)
I am rather lost as to exactly what you are trying to prove - since I am in basic agreement with you about the linguistic principles and Tolkien's methods in regards to translation, etc.
I think we are getting lost in the depth of Tolkien's linguistic detail, something which the movie would be hard pressed to reproduce -- much less be aware of -- considering it takes not only a faithful reading of the appendices, but of outside sources as well, to fully realize the richness and complexity of the languages.
PsYkOoOoO
09-11-2003, 10:58 AM
damn if tolkien is still alive he will be able to answer everything...but oh well...he just sat down and started typing..he never made any drafts whatsoever when he wrote the book..inconsistency is inevitable..just like the little mistakes from the films
The Moose
09-12-2003, 03:45 AM
but think about it. we are sitting here agruing over fine points, but i don't realise how much work is involved in creating a new language (JRRT made heaps, eg. dwarvish, quenya, sindarin, common tongue, black speech, etc) and we are too close it. we need to take a step back to enable us to comprehend what he did
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