Gandalf-Nazgul confrontation

[jeti]

Hi again guys,
I was wondering if you could clear something up for me. In the ROTK trailer we see Gandalf on Shadowfax with Pippin in the "backseat", meeting a Nazgul on his... err, dragon.

From what I recall from the books, Gandalf only meets the witchking himself, and this seem to happen at the gates of Minas Tirith - not at the top of some tower / battlement. Also, the witchking were on a horse, both when leaving Minas Morgul and when entering the gate. Yet at the confrontation on Pelennor fields I believe he was riding one of those dragons again... how did that happen?

I do not mind PJ making adjustments to the movie, but it seems to me that it would be a great shame indeed to alter the scene at the gates - it seems perfect enough as it is.

[adt100]

There was quite a bit of talk of this when the preview first leaked.

I would almost guanrantee this is not the confrontation at the Great Gates of Minas Tirith, that is just too cinematic a moment as written in the book for PJ to pass up on and mess with IMO.

Remember how Gandalf fought of a Nazgul from atop the battlements when 1 was attacking Faramir and co. in the book? Well I presume this could either be related to this scene or maybe an additional scene to up the ante, after all we know that during the siege there are Nazgul flying around the Pelennor fields during the battle.

The only concern I have is the on what beast the WiKi will confront Gandalf at the gates. As you say, in the book the WiKi leads his army out of Minas Morgul on horseback, and enters the gates on horseback to meet Gandalf. I would love to see that happen in the films, as not only is it more faithful to the books, but to me, despite the size of the Fell Beast, the image of the Wiki leading an army on horseback, just as Aargorn later leads his army of of MT on horseback, and meeting Gandalf on a 'level playing field' seems far more cinematic. You also have to ask how do you lead an army of of MM while on a huge winged Fell Beast?

The only problem the film audience may have is that i) many people may think the Nazgul's horses dead after the Ford of Bruinen ii) how do you explain the transition onto Fell Beast to confront Dernhelm?

[The Moose]

yeah. that will confuse some people immensely. mostly people who haven't read the books. but i hope that we do get the confrontation as it was in the books. that was cool

[Queen Arwen]

I wouldn't worry about it too much, adt. PJ has a great sense of what needs to be in the movie for it to flow and be, more or less, accurate to the text.

[Glordreen]

He'll get it right.

[Samwise Gamwich]

All I have learned from all of my current Lord Of The Rings Experience courtesy of Peter Jackson through both FOTR and TT is:

Trust Peter

[The Moose]

that is the general philosophy that i have also adopted

[adt100]

I'm not worried about how the scene playe out as such, but it's such a great scene in the book that I don't want PJ to mess about with it too much and try and put his own stamp onit. It worked so well in the book.

[TyRoss]

Actually I always thought that the original vision of the Nazgul steeds was more flying horselike, I never thought there was a diffrence in the one the Witchking confronted Gandalf in and the one he confronts Dernhelm in. (Which if I recal makes sense since the Witchking leaves Gandalf to confront the Rohirrim directly after)

[adt100]

Originally posted by TyRoss
Actually I always thought that the original vision of the Nazgul steeds was more flying horselike, I never thought there was a diffrence in the one the Witchking confronted Gandalf in and the one he confronts Dernhelm in. (Which if I recal makes sense since the Witchking leaves Gandalf to confront the Rohirrim directly after)

Now look what you've gone and done! You've reminded me of that dreadful Rankin and Bass cartoon with horses with little flappy wings and ridden by Skeletor wannabes in giant wigs. :o

I get you're point though. I personally didn't think of them as being more horselike, and I think PJ's representation of the Fell Beast is great, very much like John Howe's interpretation in his painting of the black tower I think. I just assumed that after going back to Minas Morgul the WiKi mounted another horse to lead his army out, and after the confrontation, went back to the Pelennor and took command of one of the Fell Beasts.

[The Moose]

i never saw that cartoon, i don't hthink. don't worry about finding a link. from wqhat was said,m i don't think that i want to

[The Elf King]

Is it me or is there a hobbit on the back of Gandalfs horse when he looks like his going to have a show down on the trailer with the witchking?

[adt100]

Yes, presumably Pippin.

I don't think it can be on their first arrival to MT given that Pippin is now behind Gandalf rather than in front. Maybe it's on their way back up to Denethor when he decides to make himself and Faramir a cosy little fire.

It could be a delaying tactic to up the tension.

[jeti]

Hmm, those white buildings could just as well be Osgiliath rather than Minas Tirith. Maybe PJ lets them take a little detour?

[Morphius DOH]

It's been a while since I read the books; What's the difference between the Witch King and the Nazgul?

[adt100]

Jeti, it's definitely Minas Tirith. You can tell by the architecture from the other shots we have of MT in the previews.

Morphius, The Nazgul are also known as The Black Riders, The RingWraiths, The Nine Kings of Men. (As you know, the history Tolkien created was so comprehensive that he often used many different names for different characters, peoples etc.)

The Witch King is the Witch King of Angmar, the Lord of the Nazgul, The Black Captain, who is Sauron's second in command.

[DolAmroth]

When Grond destroys the main gate of MT and he meets the Witch King he is on a horse and not a fell beast right.

[DolAmroth]

When Grond destroys the main gate of MT and gandalf meets the Witch King he is on a horse and not a fell beast right.

[adt100]

Hmmm, a matter of contention this. I think we've discussed before somewhere (maybe in the main trailer thread), but I can't be bothered to look on this occasion.

In the book the WiKi leaves MM by horse, leading the forces of Mordor. This is a pretty obvious mode of transport when you think about it, you can't really having a mass of troops being led by the WiKi on flying Fell Beast can you!

He confronts Gandalf on this horse at the Great Gates. To me this is a great moment, and very cinematic with both Gandalf and Wiki on a level, eye to eye. After leaving the this confrontation the WiKi next confronts Theoden and Dernhelm on the battlefield, this time on his Fell Beast.

The problem is the time span between the 2 confrontations isn't very great, therefore how do you rationalise the change of steed in such a space of time? Also, many cinema goers may assume the Nazgul's horses are are dead after the Ford of Bruinen (although that needen't really be any issue at all). As a result I fear we may have the Gandalf vs WiKi on Fell Beast.

[Rizor]

Couldn't they just get new horses? Or maybe the horses are magic and transform into the fell beast. Silly, I know, but just a thought!

[IB NERD]

The Nazgul's horses ARE dead, but in the books, Rohan gives Mordor the black steeds (after all, Rohan is all about horses!). So I'm sure they have more black horses, so no one should be bothered by that. About the beast, I think the WiKi calls to it or something, which would make sense. Because they do lay seige and the Fell Beast is controlled by the WiKi. So I'm sure the deal is that the Nazgul calls the beast, using his high pitched sream or something.

[Elendil]

well nazgul may not be riding horses but they arent DRAGONS they are called black numenorans just to get it straight

[LuCM]

What i got from the book was that Gandalf met up with this Witchking in front of Minas tirith. But after that Battle when they marched to the gates of Minas Morgul it was a character by the name of Mouth of Sauron that confronted Gandalf and Aragon.

[The Moose]

you both have it right. there is a confrontation between Gandalf and WiKi at minas Tirith gates, and there is a confrontation at the Black Gate between Gandalf and MoS, after pelennor

[Morphius DOH]

Originally posted by The Moose
you both have it right. there is a confrontation between Gandalf and WiKi at minas Tirith gates, and there is a confrontation at the Black Gate between Gandalf and MoS, after pelennor Either way, can't you all just get over the minor change in the way the Witch King arrives?

I know the book says by horse, but it all just comes down to that at least the confronatation is included in the movie rather than leaving it out.

[adt100]

I'm sure (at least I hope) PJ and team will do justice to the scene.

Like I said, on film it could be difficult to suitably portray the WiKi on Horse at the gates then almost immediately after on a Fell Beast, so I could understand that change. However, it is still a really cinematic moment IMO and would actually be more powerful with him on horseback.

[The Moose]

dare i reply with this: same here. PJ has done a fine job so far, and i see no evidence to the contrary here

[The Moose]

dare i reply with this: same here. PJ has done a fine job so far, and i see no evidence to the contrary here.

having them on horseback, as it was written in the book would show us the real scale of the nazgul. we saw them leaning over the hobbits at weathertop, and aragorn fighting them, but with gandalf on shadowfax, it will provide us with a greatcomparison.

"Leader" of good 3 feet away from deputy leader of all out evil. that would be one hell of a money shot

[adt100]

Exactly. Having him at eye level to Gandalf, on the same animal only like a reverse image balck on black against white on white, sat still and quite, while all around is in turmoil.

Having him lolloping in on a big unweildy Fell Beast, with the Nazgul bobbing up and down on the back of him, it just loses something IMO.

[The Moose]

yeah. even field, but yet so uneven