Did Albus Dumbledore kill Hitler ?

[D-fence]

Okay, Your all gonna kick me around for this one, but bare with me:

Just re-read Book 1 for the 12th time (it's sick, I know) and I noticed yet another thing I didn't pick up before: When Harry is on the Hogwarts Express for the first time, and eating Chocolate Frogs, he reads the little cards that goes with it. You know, the cards with famous wizards to collect. Anyway, his card shows Albus Dumbledore, and has the following text on the back:

Albus Dumbledore, currently Headmaster of Hogwarts.
Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Professor Dumbledore is particularly famous for his DEFEAT OF THE DARK WIZARD GRINDELWALD IN 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel. Professor Dumbledore enjoys chamber music and tenpin bowling.

So.. Dumbledore Defeated a wizard in 1945? Coincidence? Or did good old Albus single-handedly stop and evil wizard who was also known in the muggle world under a different name?


God.. I think I’ve read this books one to many times haven't I? :p

[spiderman_2k]

.......... Strange idea....But maybe....

[Kris Hodgson]

I never realized that before, but maybe Rowling did intend it to mean Hitler. It's possible.

[D-fence]

Yeah I just thought, WHY did she pick THAT year? She could have picked god knows what time, but no: she picked 1945.

Aaah, who knows. Maybe this is nothing. But just thought I should post it. See what you all make of it.

[spiderman_2k]

Its an interesting idea...

[Balrog of Moria]

Wow that sig. is distractiong...What was I gonna say...uhh..Ill get back to u

[hpk37067]

I never thought of that. Perhaps she implied that Hitler got his power because he was a wizard and everyone says he commited suicide though. Strange yet workable idea.

[D-fence]

I'm gonna check the books for more of these subtle 'hints'. She might just put them in there for fun, not doing anything with them in future books (like this one. Don't think she'll ever go back to THIS!)
So I will let you all know if I find anything else, and post it here.

Oh, and if any of you have also found things like this in the books, but thought them to stupid to post: post it here. Trust me: after my Hitler theory, nobody will laugh at you anymore! :p

[Fable]

nifty theory.. i bet she did that intentionally

[hpk37067]

Let's give a round of applause for D-Fence. Yay!!!!

[Fable]

YAY FOR D-FENCE! D-FENCE! D-FENCE!

(by the way, hkp did you get a new avatar? that's from wc3 right? what site did you get it from???)

[dr_evil]

wow i came into this thread exppecting some stupid comment

and i was wrong that might actually be possible but i dont think it is hitler because she (j.k.r.) already some christians against her but metioning hitler in the books and calling him a wizard will make most jewish hate the series

[Fable]

lol... i just hate those idiots who think harry potter is evil, i'm a christian and i just can't understand why people would take a childrens book so seriously..

[_m_a_n_u_e_l_]

now that you talk about it, in goblet of fire, did anyone notice that it had sort of an underlying message about racism and discrimination?

[_m_a_n_u_e_l_]

or is it just me?

[D-fence]

You mean the whole muddbloods thing?

[hpk37067]

Originally posted by Fable
YAY FOR D-FENCE! D-FENCE! D-FENCE!

(by the way, hkp did you get a new avatar? that's from wc3 right? what site did you get it from???)

Yeah, it is from WARCRAFT III. I got it from gamespy.com/avatars or something. They also have a knight and another guy that looks like her but with a panthar. I wanted the knight but I took this.

[Fable]

Originally posted by hpk37067
Yeah, it is from WARCRAFT III. I got it from gamespy.com/avatars or something. They also have a knight and another guy that looks like her but with a panthar. I wanted the knight but I took this.

sweet... i love WC3, frozen throne is out, do you have it yet?

[hpk37067]

No not yet. First I gotta get some money, do you have it?

[Fable]

no.. i'm thinking about going out and getting it today, i need some people to tell me what they think of it yet, maybe i'll go to the Video Games forum and ask

[hpk37067]

Good idea.

[Fable]

hpk, what is your s\n on WC3? i'll add you on my list and maybe we can play sometime.

[hpk37067]

I don't have my disc with me at the moment, and this computer doesn't support the game. My other computer just won't hook up to the internet for some reason. I'll tell you once I get it hooked up and then we can play.

[Fable]

sweet, sounds good. i spend most of my time in the harry potter and LOTR forum, occasionally the video games... so give me a message in one of those placeswhen you're ready to play

[hpk37067]

You betcha.

[Laterose]

people, Hitler hanged himself in a bunker, remember?

[spiderman_2k]

Yes that is the story...But the story in the books wouldnt exactly be....A great wizard killed him, Wizards are hidden from muggles..

[Laterose]

if JK meant that honestly, then she is crossing so many lines it is certainly not funny.

[Mobycat]

Originally posted by Laterose
people, Hitler hanged himself in a bunker, remember?

He did? I thought he shot himself.

[D-fence]

As I said before: WHY would she pick 1945, one of the most well known dates of the 20th century? She could easily have picked another year, but no: she picked the year in which one of the most dark ages even known to man came to an end.
And the funny thing is: nobody can point a finger at her! It's just slipped in there, in a seemingly insignificant piece of text.

Someone should just ask her someday if it's WWII related. People MUST have asked her more ridiculous things than that, right?

[HeadHunter]

Originally posted by D-fence
Okay, Your all gonna kick me around for this one, but bare with me:

Just re-read Book 1 for the 12th time (it's sick, I know) and I noticed yet another thing I didn't pick up before: When Harry is on the Hogwarts Express for the first time, and eating Chocolate Frogs, he reads the little cards that goes with it. You know, the cards with famous wizards to collect. Anyway, his card shows Albus Dumbledore, and has the following text on the back:

Albus Dumbledore, currently Headmaster of Hogwarts.
Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Professor Dumbledore is particularly famous for his DEFEAT OF THE DARK WIZARD GRINDELWALD IN 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel. Professor Dumbledore enjoys chamber music and tenpin bowling.

So.. Dumbledore Defeated a wizard in 1945? Coincidence? Or did good old Albus single-handedly stop and evil wizard who was also known in the muggle world under a different name?


God.. I think I’ve read this books one to many times haven't I? :p

what the ****???? Dumbledore kill Hitler???....who cares if the **** he did in my opinion...good for him :)

[D-fence]

Originally posted by HeadHunter
what the ****???? Dumbledore kill Hitler???....who cares if the **** he did in my opinion...good for him :)

:) See, THIS is the kind of reaction I originally expected! Glad allot of you went into it more seriously though! Thanks for that! Oh and HeadHunter: You have every right to call it a ludicrous idea. I'm still bordering on both opinions myself! :)

[LOTRfan]

Originally posted by dr_evil
but metioning hitler in the books and calling him a wizard will make most jewish hate the series

I don't think j.k. was implying he was "a type of wizard" in any sense. I think she was just drawing parallels between evils in our world and those in her make-believe one. Makes her story more realistic. Hitler is similar to Voldemort...he wanted to "weed out" a people to create the "perfect race" just as Voldemort wants to rid the wizarding world of mudbloods. That Hitler connection may be her way of linking the two worlds- one fiction, one real.

[LOTRfan]

Originally posted by Fable
i just hate those idiots who think harry potter is evil, i'm a christian and i just can't understand why people would take a childrens book so seriously..

I agree...there have been so many books about this sort of thing. They are purely for enjoyment purposes only. I think its just the fact that the HP books are soo insanely popular that people start getting worried. The thing is they have nothing to worry about. The underlying messages aren't anti-God or whatever they are supposedly. They are of true friendship, fighting for what's right, and are even against discrimination. And if being a wizard means they can't believe in God then why is Sirius a GODFATHER? These people need to give it a rest. The books are perfectly harmless and only for fun.

[hpk37067]

Anyway, I don't know if Grindelwald and Hitler are the same person but it does raise questions. It is very curious why she chose that particular year.

[_m_a_n_u_e_l_]

Originally posted by LOTRfan
I don't think j.k. was implying he was "a type of wizard" in any sense. I think she was just drawing parallels between evils in our world and those in her make-believe one. Makes her story more realistic. Hitler is similar to Voldemort...he wanted to "weed out" a people to create the "perfect race" just as Voldemort wants to rid the wizarding world of mudbloods. That Hitler connection may be her way of linking the two worlds- one fiction, one real.


which would tie in ith my racism and discrimination idea with the mudbloods and the house elves)

i may however be wrong

[Laterose]

Originally posted by hpk37067
Anyway, I don't know if Grindelwald and Hitler are the same person but it does raise questions. It is very curious why she chose that particular year.
I don't know if she chose that particular year on purpose. If she is deciding to go in this direction, I'm extremely annoyed.

[D-fence]

Originally posted by Laterose
I don't know if she chose that particular year on purpose. If she is deciding to go in this direction, I'm extremely annoyed.

I don't think she will really do anything with it! I think she just put it in there as some subtle sort of reference or JOKE even. Just so that fans like us would read it and go: 'hmmm.. 1945 eh?'
I mean, any normal person would read it, maybe think about it for one second, and then move on! :) It's only Die-hards like us who dive into it this deep!

and lets face it:
WE LOVE IT !!!!!!! :D

These kinda debates are the reason I keep coming back to this site! :p

[Laterose]

a few months from now, this forum becomes evilsquishy's and my playroom. No serious disscussions, sorry kid

[que_SuertE777]

Grindelwald a.k.a. Hitler? It seems possible, but I don't think Hitler would be on my list of famous people in history who would be the most likely candidates to be part of the wizarding world.

[Fable]

did anyone remember what grindlewald did? did he kill a specific race or religious group? If he did, there's no doubt he's hitler

[D-fence]

Originally posted by Fable
did anyone remember what grindlewald did? did he kill a specific race or religious group? If he did, there's no doubt he's hitler

So far I've only found this one reference to Grindlewald. But there might be more.. I'm starting in book 2 again in a couple of days, so I'll get back to ya if I find any :)

-D.-

[hpk37067]

Do that. If it says anything about a genocide or something, it's Hitler.

[Laterose]

Originally posted by Fable
did anyone remember what grindlewald did? did he kill a specific race or religious group? If he did, there's no doubt he's hitler
As far as I know, they never say what he did.

[hpk37067]

Someone should ask her in a press conference. I wonder even if JKR realizes this coincidence.

[Laterose]

maybe she's vaguely aware of it. If she holds a chat on the internet, ask her

[hpk37067]

Right. Do know when she will chat on the internet?

[Laterose]

I thought she was going to soon, someone said it in another thread

[hpk37067]

She probably will because people will have questions that need to be answered from OOTP.

[D-fence]

Originally posted by hpk37067
She probably will because people will have questions that need to be answered from OOTP.

Question for al of you: If you could ask Rowling ONE question, what would it be?

Personally: "Miss Rowling, you already know the story lines of all 7 books. Which moment in this continuing story is your personal favourite?"

Likely answer: "It's something we've already read but don't realise the full importance of just yet"

[Laterose]

I'd like to ask, "Miss Rowling, what books that you read as a child do you think have helped your style of writing."

Likely Answer: "I have my own unique style."

[hpk37067]

That would be a lie.

[Laterose]

I know, but what else is she going to say?

[que_SuertE777]

Maybe she would say that they have help open her eyes and have broken boundaries to limitless possibilites through which she could share her ideas with the whole world.

[hpk37067]

She should say, there is no unique style, only variations.

[eclipsedman]

Its too late, JK already did the internet chat. It was a couple days after OOTP came out. Only kids got to answer and they asked kids questions of course, like "do you believe in magic" When they should have asked " do you belive in witchcraft and are you using your books to introduce unsuspecting kids to satanism?"
No Just kidding. Who knows and we probably will never find out.

[Bambi]

I think that nobody mentions the year 1945 without any sort of association with the WWII. At least in Europe, this is educational thing- it just sinks in after all those history classes. And on th efirst readind'g, I was struck by this date, as well. Anotherinterpretation is that Hitler, well-known for his fascination with the occult (the searches for the Holy Grail which he commisioned, etc.), might have had secret assistance of a dark wizard when carrying out his murderous plans. After all, being the chancellor of the Reich (= head of state), he had probably been informed about the existence of the wizarding community).

[Laterose]

Originally posted by Bambi
I think that nobody mentions the year 1945 without any sort of association with the WWII. At least in Europe, this is educational thing- it just sinks in after all those history classes. And on th efirst readind'g, I was struck by this date, as well. Anotherinterpretation is that Hitler, well-known for his fascination with the occult (the searches for the Holy Grail which he commisioned, etc.), might have had secret assistance of a dark wizard when carrying out his murderous plans. After all, being the chancellor of the Reich (= head of state), he had probably been informed about the existence of the wizarding community).
That may be true.

[hpk37067]

I agree. A wizard may have helped Hitler.

[Boods]

JK definitely put 1945 on purpose as a reference to the end of hitler...grindewald..

[Laterose]

But that's been the only reference to him so far. That does it have to do with the series?

[hpk37067]

I'm not sure. Unless she wants to start a WWIII.

[Laterose]

which wouldn't really tie in with the series......

[hpk37067]

So true.

[Laterose]

unless she wants to do spin-offs afterward

[hpk37067]

Which would suck. I hope she doesn't make like, before Harry was born or Voldie's rise to power or something.

[Laterose]

If she wants money, she'll do it

[hpk37067]

Sad how the world is, isn't it?

[HeadHunter]

she wont want money...do you know how Rich that women is??

[hpk37067]

Yeah. She's now making more money than the Queen!

[HeadHunter]

WOW...but to be honest the queens not that rich compared to alot of people *COUGH*GATES*COUGH*

[hpk37067]

I don't think anyone could compare to that kinda money. I mean, there's like no person in the world you has never used Windows or DOS.

[HeadHunter]

my Mum

[Laterose]

with the exception of some parents

[hpk37067]

Well......okay now everykid in America and Europe has Windows or has used it. And schools use them. It's crazy.

[Laterose]

It works

[HeadHunter]

Originally posted by Laterose
It works

what works

[D-fence]

Windows

[tomoyo_angel21]

Originally posted by D-fence
Okay, Your all gonna kick me around for this one, but bare with me:

Just re-read Book 1 for the 12th time (it's sick, I know) and I noticed yet another thing I didn't pick up before: When Harry is on the Hogwarts Express for the first time, and eating Chocolate Frogs, he reads the little cards that goes with it. You know, the cards with famous wizards to collect. Anyway, his card shows Albus Dumbledore, and has the following text on the back:

Albus Dumbledore, currently Headmaster of Hogwarts.
Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Professor Dumbledore is particularly famous for his DEFEAT OF THE DARK WIZARD GRINDELWALD IN 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel. Professor Dumbledore enjoys chamber music and tenpin bowling.

So.. Dumbledore Defeated a wizard in 1945? Coincidence? Or did good old Albus single-handedly stop and evil wizard who was also known in the muggle world under a different name?


God.. I think I’ve read this books one to many times haven't I? :p

LOL cool idea you got there! :applaud:

[Laterose]

it is interesting

[hpk37067]

Originally posted by D-fence
Windows

Why are we talking about Windows? Let's all agree it's famous and JKR won't become as rich as Bill Gates.

[Laterose]

that is a good conclusion

[hpk37067]

Of course it is.:D

[Laterose]

so ,what should we talk about now?

[hpk37067]

Hose pipes are neither hoses nor pipes. Discuss.

[Laterose]

???

[Tim37ninjageniu]

Actually Hosepipes are hoses.

[hpk37067]

Okay, one discussion done. How about internal combustion is neither internal nor combustion?

[Laterose]

how bout we go back on topic?

[LOTRfan]

*gasp* You-did-not-just-say-that!!http://mysmilies.creativesell.net/contrib/lilly/eek1bluegreen.gif

[Laterose]

me? oh my god.....
evilsquishy!!!!! Come home! I've lost my ability to hijack threads!!!!:waa:

[hpk37067]

So anyway. Since some people *cough* Laterose & LOTRfan *cough* have pointed out to me the error of my ways, I will do the right thing and get this thread back to topic.

I think the whole Grindelwald helped Hitler thing might not work because Grindelwald could have stopped his troops from dieing in Russia therefore helping Hitler. Thoughts?

[Laterose]

If Grindlewald was helping Hitler, wouldn't the kids have learned about it in school? There are no other references to Grindlewald besides the card.

[hpk37067]

Perhaps in Muggle Studies, but probably not anywhere else.

[Tim37ninjageniu]

Originally posted by Laterose
If Grindlewald was helping Hitler, wouldn't the kids have learned about it in school? There are no other references to Grindlewald besides the card.

The books don't go into to much detail of what the kids learn in History of Magic and it could have been mentioned there. Either way I doubt we will find out either way. If that's what JKR had in mind when writing that we will never know.

[Laterose]

a loose end she never picked up?

[Tim37ninjageniu]

perhaps.

[Mobycat]

Originally posted by hpk37067
Okay, one discussion done. How about internal combustion is neither internal nor combustion?

Actually, it is. Combustion=fire. Internal = inside the engine.

An engine that fires within (spark plugs)

:wave:

[_manuel_]

Originally posted by Laterose
so ,what should we talk about now?

how about the underlying message of racism and discrimination and its negative effects on society that can be found in GoF?

[Rizor]

I'm thinking Grindlewald is a dark wizard that used that mind control curse on Hitler. Didn't Hitler have some mental disorder? That could be attributed to not knowing what you've been doing hours on end.

[hpk37067]

Originally posted by Mobycat
Actually, it is. Combustion=fire. Internal = inside the engine.

An engine that fires within (spark plugs)

:wave:

Hey man, I was just making conversation. And it was on SNL so...........yeah.

[Laterose]

okay, what were we talking about?

[hpk37067]

Somethin' about Grindie controlling Hitler and that explains why he has a mental disorder.

[Laterose]

oh....

[Queen Me]

No, I killed hitler! -evil laugh- o.O

[hpk37067]

Anyway, thoughts on the other guy's thoughts?

[Laterose]

who is this Queen Me???

oh, a newbie.....welcome

[Willowisp]

Heh.. Resurrection time.. I just thought I'd add a question to this thread.. Do we really think - in light of the last two books - and especially the final confrontation between Voldie and DD in OotP... Would DD really have killed this dark wizard.. I mean: The frog card says "Defeated Grindelwald" - not killed..

And sure - JKR says that Grindelwald is dead.. but ponder that he is put in Azkaban.. he'd be dead by the time of these books anyway... one gets the sense that people go mad and stop eating in Azkaban if they stay long enough.. Sirius being exceptional there..

Also - on a side note Rowling confirms that the year 1945 is no accident:

"It amuses me to make allusions to things that were happening in the Muggle world, so my feeling would be that while there's a global Muggle war going on, there's also a global wizarding war going on."

But the question is - would Dumbledore really kill someone.. For as he says to Voldie in the Ministry of Magic "There are things much worse than death"... And he is also unwilling to strike a killing blow... This may of course be due to fact that he already suspects Voldie's use of horcruxes - then again, even with horcruxes Voldemort would still be less than a shadaow if defeated.. That's what happened when he attacked Harry with the killing curse... and it rebounded... Horcruxes or no he was still reduced to a bodyless shade.. and there is nothing to suggest that killing him now would not reduce him to the same state.. even if it might not take him as many years to return to a body again.. So why does Dumbledore not strike at Voldemort to kill?

Even excluding the unforgivable curses there must be curses or jinxes to burn someone to a cinder or fry them with lightning or whatever.. In short.. I don't think DD kills.. and I think that this is going to be important in the last book..

[Laterose]

maybe it was like a parralel battle. I think Dumbledore must have killed SOMEONE. I mean, c'mon, it was a war, it could have happened lol

[Willowisp]

Hey Latrose.. long time no see :)

Sure it could have.. and there's been discussion elsehwere on the topic.. I am asking if you think he actually would though.. Seeing as how he speaks of there being worse things than death.. I do not think that he would if he can avoid it.. or would.. hey.. he is dead right... or is he... :omg:? *twilight zone music*

[Drizzt240]

Why not?

[Willowisp]

Because he is the ultimate softie... He would rather die himself than let others die.. I think that he would avoid killing at all costs.. If you think through the series... Can you remind yourself of any wizard except those on Voldemorts side or those under the imperius curse killing or attempting to.. Bad people are sentenced to live out their lives in Azkaban.. Not in any place is killing mentioned for the good guys... and Dumbledore is the ultimate good guy..

[tiamat1990]

Yeah...but even good people are sometimes forced to do things in situations...

[Stands Alone]

I saw this thread a couple days ago when lurking. Though we're past all the "Hitler" talk, it's a very interesting question. And if he did, I wouldn't say the verdict wouldn't be bad.

[Jedi Potter]

I think Hitler had a wizard helping him most likely, and it would fit with the connections between the two worlds.

[D-fence]

Wow.. It's been a LONG time.
But fun to see this thread is still around.. :) God I was young back then ( thats a POSITIVE remark) and a BIG potter fan. Still am BTW - if only the last book didn't take that freaking long! sigh.... "The last word of the last page of the last Potterbook will be SCAR". Yeah yeah..

Ah, anyway.. I'm back! Lets snoop around and see who's still here. :P

[D-fence]

Okay. BUMP because Rowling has now confirmed that Grindelwald (wizard defeated in 1945) will be a part of the book 7 story.

Curious as hell now how it will fit in..

[petergriffin246]

when did she say that?

[D-fence]

This is from wikipedia:

Grindelwald
Harry Potter character
Grindelwald
Gender Male
Allegiance Unknown (Dumbledore's enemy)
First appearance Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (mention)

Grindelwald was a Dark wizard before Lord Voldemort and his only mention is in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone on Albus Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog card which notes that Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald in 1945.

Rowling apparently once claimed that there was a connection between Grindelwald and Hitler (hence the 1945 date of defeat); she has stated that she likes to imagine a connection between the wizarding world and the real one.[1]

Grindelwald has something to do with the remaining plot. (TLC/MN interview) [2]

Grindelwald is a Germanic name: Wald means "Forest", and Grindelwald is a ski resort in Switzerland. The name Grindelwald also bears a resemblance to the mythic Grendel who was defeated by Beowulf. It is worth noting that one of Dumbledore's middle names is Wulfric - close to Beowulf. Given Rowling's penchant for clever naming, it is likely that this was intended.



SO.. Grindelwald & Hitler connection.. AND he's part of book 7 somehow! :omg:

[mattycat9000]

zomg, this means that maybe hitler is a secret nazi horcrux. I think itd be pretty awesome if there was some connection, i love that kind of stuff.

[PsychoMike]

I would rather there not be a major connection between Grindelwald and Hitler. It would ruin the books... for the most part the books stay out of the muggle world and the politics of the muggle world (no mention of the fall of the Berlin Wall, the fall of the USSR, Splitting of eastern European countries -- All of which happened while Harry has been at Hogwarts.) Having the wizzarding world involved in WWII would go against this tradition.

I think it more likely that there is a parralle between the time of Grindelwald and Hitler than a direct connection.